Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[MfA]

I don't think the floating point peak performance matters one iota ... I don't think it will be the determining factor in how well it runs game code.

Given how the last generation played out though an off the shelf x86 processor seems unlikely period ... going on the past Bobcat is the most likely to go into consoles, as it's the only decent x86 SOC core.

 

[Squilliam]

I don't think the floating point peak performance matters one iota ... I don't think it will be the determining factor in how well it runs game code.

Given how the last generation played out though an off the shelf x86 processor seems unlikely period ... going on the past Bobcat is the most likely to go into consoles, as it's the only decent x86 SOC core.

Well I guess it suits the purposes of both Nintendo and Microsoft doesn't it? For the former it gives them a good performance, low power chip to fit into their constrained form factor and for the latter it frees up a considerable silicon and power budget to use on a much larger stream processor array without sacraficing performance.

Is it powerful enough to be backwards compatible with a POWER tri-core?

 

[DieH@rd]

VG247 has posted few crazy rumors regarding PSP2. They are claiming it uses 4 core CELL processor. :-/ I'm not gonna link directly to them, cos they are definitely not reliable with their rumors.

* MCV rumoured last week that Sony “could” announce PSP2 at E3.
* VG247 goes digging. According to a source familiar with the matter, it’s “99 percent” it isn’t an E3 reveal.
* But there’s much, much more.
* Multiple British sources have confirmed that PSP2 NDAs have been in place at publishers and developers for many months.
* PSP2 has two cameras, one forward and one backward facing.
* It has a touch-screen, but apparently it has retained the trademark physical PlayStation buttons.
* UK sources were previously working towards a “2010″ release. This is now “2011″.
* One source would be “amazed” if there was any kind of physical media involved. We’ve been told it “could” be 3G-enabled, as opposed to the WiFi-only PSP go. This bit was sketchy.
* Multiple PSP2 games are being made in Britain right now. Some have even already been canned.
* There have been “finished units” in the UK, but we haven’t spoken to anyone that’s seen a final case.
* When asked directly about reveal timing, one source said, “If the games were aiming for end 2010, beginning 2011, and now it’s a 2011 release, I’d say a gamescom or TGS announce for launch early next year”.
* One source told us the machine is “fucking powerful,” being based on a four-core Cell CPU. PS3 runs on an eight-core version.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395619

 

[Rangers]

4 core Cell would be way way way way way way way way too big and hot for a portable I'm pretty sure. False rumor confirmed.

Not sure why you'd want a Cell in a portable anyway. It's best purpose seems to be to jump through hoops to aid the GPU on PS3, but PS3 is in a fixed hardware battle with 360, locked in stone, so it needs every help it can get. You'd be better off just making a better GPU as always, certainly for a handheld. Especially a handheld that would presumably have no graphical challenger, especially with the power considerations of a handheld you dont want to waste juice making a CPU do GPU stuff.

 

[Rolf N]

Lovely, a "something could exist" rumour as the basis to a story. How does that even work? You can assert that something is possible, sure. Anyone can. But how do you introduce the rumor layer to it, by not knowing the person who said it? Just say it yourself! Thank you video games journalism, thank you for vomiting all over your face yet again.

 

[MfA]

IMO Sony would be mad to bring out a PSP2 without 3D screen technology, letting Nintendo ride their own hype AND Sony's hype (for their 3D televisions) and then having to compete without an autostereoscopic screen would be suicide unless the consumers reject 3D en masse. Sharp probably has an exclusive contract with Nintendo, but 3M, AU (who bought Ocuity) and Master Image all have technology for sale. If they planned to launch this year they might not have seen the 3DS coming, so that may be why they are delaying.

PS. normal Cell is designed for very high clocks, I see no problem putting a lower clock designed 4 SPU Cell (say 1 GHz) in a handheld.

 

[TheWretched]

Well, it doesn't have to mean a 4 core version at 3.2 Ghz... they could've just as easily made a version running at 1Ghz (like the Snapdragons), but having much less powerdraw.

But... those rumors are strange...

 

[Dural]

The power draw still wouldn't be anywhere near an arm based solution. In fact, an SoC with an arm based cpu and powervr gpu would likely still be quite a bit lower in power consumption. Repurposed server/desktop cpus just can't compete with purpose built mobile processors on the power consumption front.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What if, an idea that's just occured to me, what if PSP2 wasn't as much a handheld as a portable device, with a deliberate intention for it to be transported and connected to TVs? The idea would be a device that could play games to a respectable standard for TV output, Wii-ish low-performance tech for the masses, and read a Move controller, play 1080p movies etc. Such a design could compromise power efficiency for flexibility assuming a lot of the time it'll be plugged in at the wall connected to a TV and it'd give the handheld a new niche presence instead of competing directly with the zillions of handhelds out there and coming.

Edit : in fact, running away with this idea, what if the next PSP is designed to be pretty much bytewise compatible with PS4, intended as a portable PS4 experience. You're at home, buyt the latest game for your PS4, and enjoy it in 1080p. Then you drag the game from the PS4 onto your PS4P (PlayStation 4 Portable) and can play a cut-down version of the same game using the same save files, with the same internet connectivity etc., and can play it as a handheld. You can take that device to a friend's house and plug it into their TV to play the same game, cut down but still watchable, on their big TV, before finishing off with a movie on the HDD. That to me sounds like a novel experience that'd be marketable and desirable and offer some wortwhile competition to Apple and friends.

 

[tuna]

4 core Cell would be way way way way way way way way too big and hot for a portable I'm pretty sure. False rumor confirmed.

Not sure why you'd want a Cell in a portable anyway. It's best purpose seems to be to jump through hoops to aid the GPU on PS3, but PS3 is in a fixed hardware battle with 360, locked in stone, so it needs every help it can get. You'd be better off just making a better GPU as always, certainly for a handheld. Especially a handheld that would presumably have no graphical challenger, especially with the power considerations of a handheld you dont want to waste juice making a CPU do GPU stuff.

A 4 SPU Cell wouldn't be that hot, right. Also, it would be great for media decoding and anti-piracy stuff (like the current PS3).

 

[patsu]

Edit : in fact, running away with this idea, what if the next PSP is designed to be pretty much bytewise compatible with PS4, intended as a portable PS4 experience. You're at home, buyt the latest game for your PS4, and enjoy it in 1080p. Then you drag the game from the PS4 onto your PS4P (PlayStation 4 Portable) and can play a cut-down version of the same game using the same save files, with the same internet connectivity etc., and can play it as a handheld. You can take that device to a friend's house and plug it into their TV to play the same game, cut down but still watchable, on their big TV, before finishing off with a movie on the HDD. That to me sounds like a novel experience that'd be marketable and desirable and offer some wortwhile competition to Apple and friends.

I did toy around with the idea that PS4 is a network of independent portable devices. That way, we can take it out of the house, and plug them in to play together. I can get more utility out of it. But it's only a dream so far.

As for PSP2, I can't imagine why they need so much power on the PSP2. For natural interface ?

The only reason (I can think of) for Cell in PSP2 is to counter the piracy.

 

[archangelmorph]

I did toy around with the idea that PS4 is a network of independent portable devices. That way, we can take it out of the house, and plug them in to play together. I can get more utility out of it. But it's only a dream so far.

As for PSP2, I can't imagine why they need so much power on the PSP2. For natural interface ?

The only reason (I can think of) for Cell in PSP2 is to counter the piracy.

Errr... games?

 

[Titanio]

A 4 SPU Cell wouldn't be that hot, right. Also, it would be great for media decoding and anti-piracy stuff (like the current PS3).

Dunno how hot it would be, but 4-SPU Cell would be a huge power-draw compared to current mobile processors. I don't think it would be feasible.

The SpursEngine 4-SPU Cell @ 1.5Ghz draws 10-20 watts (65nm version). Even if you took a 45nm version and applied the kind of power savings IBM saw going from 65nm->45nm with the regular Cell (~40%), you're only down to 6-12 watts.

The iPhone CPU draws 0.35 watts. I think its GPU supposedly draws even less, 0.1 watts (this article here says ~100mW for the SGX530 @ 100-166Mhz).

 

[patsu]

Dunno how hot it would be, but 4-SPU Cell would be a huge power-draw compared to current mobile processors. I don't think it would be feasible.

The SpursEngine 4-SPU Cell @ 1.5Ghz draws 10-20 watts (65nm version). Even if you took a 45nm version and applied the kind of power savings IBM saw going from 65nm->45nm with the regular Cell (~40%), you're only down to 6-12 watts.

The iPhone CPU draws 0.35 watts.

That might just end the discussion.

Errr... games?

... but the fooking screen is so small ! (unless they want to play on a large screen when docked). IMHO, it's more important to differentiate PSP from PS3.

 

[TheWretched]

The Cortex A8 certainly does not draw only 0.35 Watts under full load?!?

 

[DieH@rd]

And 4core cell doesent have to have 1.5ghz clock. They can go down.

 

[Titanio]

The Cortex A8 certainly does not draw only 0.35 Watts under full load?!?

Hmmm. I was going by this article which quotes the power consumption for the A8 at <0.59mW per mhz.

0.59 * 600 = 354mW

But maybe that figure wasn't a peak figure...or maybe it's just plain incorrect? I've no idea what typical mobile CPU power draw is like, I went looking for the 3GS's to get an idea, and that's the first set of numbers I came across...

edit - it doesn't seem crazily out of whack with the kind of numbers quoted in the other B3D article I linked to in my last post either, which says 'full-system power consumption of ~3W' for a symbian s60, for example (suggesting chipset consumption in these kinds of phones is sub-1W). Now it may be I'm totally misunderstanding how this stuff works..(?) :|

 

[Teasy]

Only in the minds of stockholders. Gamers don't give a shit about the bottom line, they want good, cool, fun games. 360 offers that. Wii...not so much, unless you love Cooking Mama and Wiifit.

That's a fact, by the way.

Its a fact only in your mind

Have to say I don't find a single game Microsoft make fun, EA are far better at producing fun games IMO. My favourites this generation have been Mario Galaxy, FIFA 10, Fight Night Round 3, Grand Slam Tennis (Wii version) and Zack and Wiki.

On next gen I agree with something I read earlier in this thread, that both Sony and Microsoft could very well go for updated PS3/360's. By this time last gen we were hearing about CELL and IBM's multicore CPU for 360. But so far we've heard nothing about next gen console CPU's, could it be that's because they're not worth talking about this time round?

 

[Squilliam]

What if, an idea that's just occured to me, what if PSP2 wasn't as much a handheld as a portable device, with a deliberate intention for it to be transported and connected to TVs? The idea would be a device that could play games to a respectable standard for TV output, Wii-ish low-performance tech for the masses, and read a Move controller, play 1080p movies etc. Such a design could compromise power efficiency for flexibility assuming a lot of the time it'll be plugged in at the wall connected to a TV and it'd give the handheld a new niche presence instead of competing directly with the zillions of handhelds out there and coming.

Edit : in fact, running away with this idea, what if the next PSP is designed to be pretty much bytewise compatible with PS4, intended as a portable PS4 experience. You're at home, buyt the latest game for your PS4, and enjoy it in 1080p. Then you drag the game from the PS4 onto your PS4P (PlayStation 4 Portable) and can play a cut-down version of the same game using the same save files, with the same internet connectivity etc., and can play it as a handheld. You can take that device to a friend's house and plug it into their TV to play the same game, cut down but still watchable, on their big TV, before finishing off with a movie on the HDD. That to me sounds like a novel experience that'd be marketable and desirable and offer some wortwhile competition to Apple and friends.

It doesn't quite make sense. The idea of taking a portable console around to a friends house is torpedoed by four problematic issues.

Firstly: The more they sell the more likely your friend has one and therefore the utility of portability to plug into TV at your friends house is gone as soon as they get one themselves. So if they are remotely successful then this feature starts to become useless.

Secondly: It destroys the utility of a handheld. If its designed to be plugged into a socket then its going to be pretty useless as a handheld game device by design.

Thirdly: Cooperative gaming isn't exactly at a high point when considering local play. This is especially the case when designing games for a single user handheld device.

Fourth: It already competes with both Sony's own console offering and their competitors console offerings as well. They already have a PS2 which fits this role better than a PSP2 ever could.

It makes sense to have a handheld which carries its own HDMI power adapter, especially if it can draw power through that same connector but it doesn't seem to make sense to go much further than that. It has to be a handheld first and foremost and everything else has to just be increased utility.

 

[TheWretched]

Hmmm. I was going by this article which quotes the power consumption for the A8 at <0.59mW per mhz.

0.59 * 600 = 354mW

But maybe that figure wasn't a peak figure...or maybe it's just plain incorrect? I've no idea what typical mobile CPU power draw is like, I went looking for the 3GS's to get an idea, and that's the first set of numbers I came across...

edit - it doesn't seem crazily out of whack with the kind of numbers quoted in the other B3D article I linked to in my last post either, which says 'full-system power consumption of ~3W' for a symbian s60, for example (suggesting chipset consumption in these kinds of phones is sub-1W). Now it may be I'm totally misunderstanding how this stuff works..(?) :|

I found that article too, but... I don't know. First, the Iphone also has a PowerVR derivate too, which certainly doesn't run on pure love either. And with a game console, only load numbers really matter... I have heard complaints from enough people about the battery time of such phones (I myself too have an older Windows Mobile phone, which can run out after only 3 or less hours).

Todays smartphones usually have about 1.2W/h of battery life. Since a console has a less strict formfactor, compared to a phone, they can easily put in bigger batteries. So, 6hrs at 4 Watts (overall) should be feasible. Dunno if that is enough, though.