The draft

Is the draft sexist ?

  • No it isn't

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The draft it self is flawed and should be done away with

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    229

jvd

Banned
Is it sexist ? Thats the question ... short and simple.

I feel that it is. Anything that forces men 18-26 into war should also force women 18-26 into war. After all the are our equals ? I also believe that women now have a double standard that didn't exsist before. Its sorta like they want the cake with the frosting but not the bananas.
 
Actually, your arguement is flawed. Men and women are not equal physically or in all situations.

You don't want to send your women off to war because when your population shrinks it only takes a few men to bring it back up. However, it takes a large number of women to work with said men to bring it back up.

In the old times, when you had small tribes, at most thousands. Women were a valuable contributer to your society. They would ensure that your tribe would persist, even if it took a large percentage of men to defend your tribe.

The side effect is that the weak 18-26 year olds will usually die, keeping the "strong" ones alive for the most part. So all of a sudden you "clean-up" the gene pool. It's all survival of the fittest I suppose, nothing like a good war to make your society strong. ;)
 
Draft should certainly be done away with. Noone should need to fight in a war unless they support the war themselves.
 
Humus said:
Draft should certainly be done away with. Noone should need to fight in a war unless they support the war themselves.

People like you infuriate me; like parasitic leechs' that live off your nation-state and flee at the first instince of any personal responcibility or jeapordy.

For example: If you live in the United States legally, you are a citizen. If you want to enjoy the freedoms and liberties afforded to citizens under the Constitution, you must do your duty to protect said Constitution in the advent that a draft is initiated.

It doesn't matter what or who you believe, if you can enjoy the liberties and freedoms in the good times, you can protect them in the bad.

This is how it works, you get nothing for free here. If you don't like it leave. If don't live here, don't comment.
 
Dude this isn't back in the day. I 'm sure we can loose a few million women and men and have no problem getting back up to the number of people we have now .
 
Vince: "People like you infuriate me"...

We are all supposed to live in democracies, well most of us who frequent this board anyway, which means that the government should represent the views of the people, therefore only decisions which would meet with a large proportion of approval should be passed and therefore the majority of people would agree with the decision and be prepared to back it, leaving those who disagree to be free to not back it. I know this is a very simple view of the system, but in essence that is how it should be.

Anyway, there should be no reason for a draft anymore anyway, we all have decently sized standing armies and we should also all be hoping we have less and less need of them, but we certainly have enough people in active service that there should be no situation in the present day climate where there is any need to "press-gang" people into service, and it's ineffective anyway as a well trained and willing soldier will always be more effective than a rapidly trained unwilling forced into service soldier.

Would you go house to house forcing people to brush their teeth even if they didn't want to given that we all know how important it is to the state of your teeth and how much dentistry costs each countries economy each year?

The draft is an out-dated, innefective, unbalanced and not particularly democratic tool of times gone by.
 
If I had a boyfriend or husband or whatever, I wouldn't want him to go off to some stupid war that I don't even want to happen, just to become a statistic...

I think everyone with family / close friends in the military always dreads "the call"...
 
I'm going to avoid the question over whether we "need" a draft or not, and get to the more interesting question of whether one should be followed if implemented.

Jon Brittan said:
We are all supposed to live in democracies, well most of us who frequent this board anyway, which means that the government should represent the views of the people, therefore only decisions which would meet with a large proportion of approval should be passed and therefore the majority of people would agree with the decision and be prepared to back it, leaving those who disagree to be free to not back it. I know this is a very simple view of the system, but in essence that is how it should be.

Yes, it's overly simple. Our elected officials do legislate and enact laws on our behalf. However, their job is NOT to just do "what the majority of people would agree with." We would have a pure democracy if that was the intention. Their job is to do "what's best for society as a whole."

There is a fundamental difference there. And I disagree fully with the notion that our representatives should do "what most people would agree with." No more than I agree that a parent should do "what his children want him to do." I would agree that representatives should do what most people would agree with, if most people were as informed and knowledgeable of all the relevant issues as possible, in order to make an educated decision. However, the folks in the private sector have their own lives to lead to increase the worth of society, and delegate the task of "being informed enough to make the right political decisions" to their representatives.

Would you go house to house forcing people to brush their teeth even if they didn't want to given that we all know how important it is to the state of your teeth and how much dentistry costs each countries economy each year?

First of all, unless dentistry is government owned, it doesn't "cost" the country's economy any...it contributes to it. ;)

That being said, it's a bad analogy. I'll amend it to make it more relevant:

If our elected officials pass a LAW that says "you must brush your teeth twice a day", then anyone REFUSING to brush his teeth should be willing to pay the consequences. Fine...imprisonment...whatever. Sure...make a public stand against teeth brushing. Go on a "plaque strike", or whatever. ;) The point is, if you don't agree with a law, that doesn't mean you have the "right" to break it.

If a draft were implemented by our elected officials, and you decide to dodge it, then it's your right to do so...no one can "force" you to fight. However, it's my opinion that punishment should be exile from the U.S. So you would indeed have a choice. And you should freely accept those consequences. Fight for your country if that's what your country tells you to do, or leave it.

On a related note....

The same goes for "supporting our troops" if they are engaged in a war that you don't support. They are out there fighting for you, whether you agree with the cause or not. There is NO excuse for not supporting the armed forces for carrying out orders of our elected officials.
 
If the majority decides to fight and you are in the minority does that exempt you?

And you should be smart enough to realize war no longers does anything to help the gene pool, all it does is allow a few lucky people to survive and the officers.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
The same goes for "supporting our troops" if they are engaged in a war that you don't support. They are out there fighting for you, whether you agree with the cause or not. There is NO excuse for not supporting the armed forces for carrying out orders of our elected officials.

Well, yeah, but isn't there a better way to support the war at this point than gambling your LIFE?
 
Vince, it's nice to see you are willing to die for your country, but would your politicians do the same? If you know your history then this debate is over, or atleast your anger is misplaced.
 
Tagrineth said:
Well, yeah, but isn't there a better way to support the war at this point than gambling your LIFE?

I don't understand what you're saying.

I'm not saying or implying that if this country goes to war, then you should support a draft. Is that what you think I'm saying?

I'm saying two things:

1) is that if a draft is imposed, whether you support it or not, you should do your duty if called upon.

2) If our troops go to war, you should "support" them whether or not you support the war. And honestly, outwardly showing disapproval of the war once it's begun, doesn't do much good for the morale of the troops. All it serves to do is make them think what a bunch of thankless SOBs we are...
 
This is how it works, you get nothing for free here. If you don't like it leave. If don't live here, don't comment.

You sir/madam should come down to Australia where more than half the population of kids are living off other peoples taxes. ;)
Refuse to get a job even if offered one.

2) If our troops go to war, you should "support" them whether or not you support the war. And honestly, outwardly showing disapproval of the war once it's begun, doesn't do much good for the morale of the troops. All it serves to do is make them think what a bunch of thankless SOBs we are...

Yes, supporting people != supporting their actions. :)
My mum didn't approve of me doing something but that doesn't mean she still does't support me. :)

Vince, it's nice to see you are willing to die for your country, but would your politicians do the same? If you know your history then this debate is over, or atleast your anger is misplaced.

I wouldn't judge anyone. :)
There are and aren't many pollies who would give their life for the country. You will not be able to judge which ones would\wouldn't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I could save the world with my death, I won't. My faith in humanity has degnerated to the point that I would kill everyone off the face of this earth (not animals as my faith with them hasn't degenerated) with a weapon of mass destruction if given the chance. (assuming the weapon only kills humans ;))
Of course, it still isn't my place to judge weather people deserve it or not, that would be a completely different question.
 
Well I'm a very selfish man and don't care about people half a world away. I would be fine if we nuked the middle east. But since that wont happen well if need be i will go and die for this country. But only because this country has my parents , gand parents , old and little sister and about 240 family memebers that i see at least twice a year . So if my going and dieing save them so be it. But i don't think just because I am a male i should go. I think both sexs should go off and die. Yes i know that means my sister would have a chance of going off and dieing but i know she would gladly accept it if it would save family memebers . I believe in this war with all of my heart but I don't think its going to end everything . I believe that all aid should be taken away from other countrys . Get out of thier lives and let them kill each other. Use the billions we hand out and use it to feed our homeless and teach our kids. Then find a way off this planet and let those that want to kill each other keep it
 
The draft shouldn't exist. Not because that might be popular. But to come to the realisation that your country is in danger and you as a citizen need to defend it is a personel decision. The draft for Vietnam for instance was WRONG.

For example, I and I'm sure lots of Americans agree that Vietnam wasn't such a threat that Americans should be up in arms and so on. The government mad a BAD decision and FORCED everyone to follow. This could be seen even in foresight, that's why so many protested. The government shouldn't make a mandatory call to arms, but rather state that we're about to get fucked side ways and we need YOUR help. Of course, you're going to want to say that in eloquent legalese. ;)

The point is, as a citizen I'm willing to defend my country, but if I feel that my country doesn't need defending (ie. I disagree with the government) I shouldn't have to do what they say.

Joe, I agree with one of the themes of your PoV good leader(s) don't always make popular decisions, even in a democracy.
 
Id like a draft

that doesnt allow escapes for any reason like college where rich kids can get out of going... of course then theres the issue of conscientious objectors...

Draft is damned if you do and damned if you dont... if rich kids went to war wed see less impetus towards war as is seen in the generals today vs the politicians who never served... but a draft that works to create an enlightened political class cant have exceptions...
 
Tagrineth said:
Well, yeah, but isn't there a better way to support the war at this point than gambling your LIFE?

The ideology Tag, is that just as you're entitled to this countries freedoms and liberties guaranteed under the Constitution - your role as a citizen is to protect the Constitution should you're elected leader deem the draft necessary.

Of course, especially in todays contemporary battlefield, there isn't a significant need for the so-called "grunts" to go slug it out - and of course there are "other" ways of advancing the cause (eg. Education), but the point I'm trying to make is that conscription in itself is a legitimate and necessary part of this Republic, since it's humble creation.

Saem said:
But to come to the realisation that your country is in danger and you as a citizen need to defend it is a personel decision

Bold are mine as they illuminate a specific word: Citizen.

cit·i·zen (st-zn)
n.

A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation

Personal decision? Where did you learn this? I suggest you go read up on citizenship, just a hint. This isn't a "I was born here, I'm entitled" type of proposition. It's very Black & White, either your a citizen and do you're duty or revoke your citizenship and move the hell out.

Because, It's unfair for people like my buddy Joel to be out in the Gulf on an Amphibious Ready ship or wherever he is now, ready to die protecting your ass and your family while you cower in the corner mumbling about "not agreeing personally." Thats bullshit, utter bullshit. If you can enjoy the freedoms, you can die protecting them if the time comes.

Vince, it's nice to see you are willing to die for your country, but would your politicians do the same? If you know your history then this debate is over, or atleast your anger is misplaced.

This Republic has survived almost 230 years. Under a policy of conscription we have given birth to the greatest democratic entity the world has seen. We've ended slavery, preserved the democratic principles we hold dear against the agressive foes of Fascism, Despotism, Communism and Tyranny. Twice have we liberated Europe from the dominion of evil under this policy in the past century.

I think you're looking for an excuse; quite frankly I don't give a f* what anyone else does or doesn't do. The question in the event of a draft would be, "Whats's your excuse?"

The point is, as a citizen I'm willing to defend my country, but if I feel that my country doesn't need defending (ie. I disagree with the government) I shouldn't have to do what they say

The point is, you don't know what the hell it is to be a citizen. I'm ashamed at this rebellous, leftist, segment of the contemporary generation in the United States (Europe is so lost it isn't even worth mention) and their outlook on topics such as this.

It's like, you want the Protection, Oppertunity, Freedoms, Liberties, and Happiness afforded under our Constitution. You will use and abuse the Constitution's privalleges to the fullest. Yet, you will only defend it if you agree with it. What bullshit.
 
Yeh, great. Everyone decides to ignore my post. It's like I'm not even posting. Argue with my post somone. :)
I'm bored. :cry:
 
Vince, I gather such discussions at this site garner the most passionate responses from you. You're entitled to your opinions - as everyone else is.

More often than not, nobody gives a flying f*ck what the hell a dictionary or some draft is supposed to say or define.

The sane folks say "I want to live in this country".

Not "I want to die for this country, in this country or elsewhere".

Of course, you're probably (used almost sarcastically) more passionate about your citizenship than most are, and you're entitled to that opinion/stance.

Just stop f*cking knocking others by comparing them to "leeches", not here in our forums.

I said before (when I was head) that I would ban political discussions here because they usually make more enemies than friends. I cannot do this now... but I am giving fair warning to all that unless you, the "regular" folks, act as polite politicians, I will start with the edits and deletions without explanations.

Be polite and respectful of difference in opinions, especially in this particular area of discussion.
 
Back
Top