WiiGeePeeYou (Hollywood) what IS it ?

[ninzel]

Real vs fake FPS?Oh god what will they think of next.
Anyway,so I guess we can come to the conclusion that at this point the Wiimote is better than the analogue stick,but not as good as mouse/key. Fair enough and a good start. I suspect things will better as devs experiment more. Who knows maybe a little bit of freedom within the bounding box will end up being preferrable. Let's give the whole thing some time.
Having said that,I found the arm and hand moving around within the view to be very distracting to look at, and it looked ackward.

 

[sfried]

Ugh, the Red Steel videos made me cringe. I'm totally against the cursor movement style, plus the sword fighting looks really bad. I'm really hoping the person playing was just really horrible, which it appeared so.

Explanation for "bad" control scheme:

Metroid Prime 3 and Call of Duty 3 have an immediate advantage, which is that the smaller bounding box is in some ways familiar to the fixed reticule setup in PC-based FPSs. Red Steel's control method is altogether new. If you want to turn, you have to literally aim your weapon at the edge of the screen to make it happen. Frankly, there's a learning curve to it, which might explain some of the negative control backlash the game has received. When you've got the action centered, the game control is completely and totally intuitive because you can target with a greater degree of precision using the Wii-mote than has ever been possible with a dual-analog setup. You simply point and shoot -- it feels natural and good. You eventually get used to this admittedly oddball control method and as you get better the game experience grows on you. You learn the intricacies of movement and it eventually becomes instinctual. And it's at exactly this point where you stop worrying about bounding boxes and just play. If you can get to that point, you will like Red Steel.

So I guess it really depend whether you like "Goldeneye" style aiming for greater accuracy or mouse-look style aiming for greater speed. Red Steel seems to be the former (the the target not always needing to be at the center of the screen to get a clean shot. Other current shooters always need to have their targets centered so it's easier to move around, but also easier to miss). Also, let me remind people that mouse look style aiming is also more motion sickness inducing than Goldeneye style "scroll-type" aiming, and given the fact that Red Steel also seems to have it's sights (no pun) set for particularly curious Japanese audiences (who would want to know what the fuss about this Yakuza FPS is about), I'd say it it's not much of a stretch to make it more friendlier to them.

I can see why some people would backlash against this sentiment, but think about what the game is going for.

 

[Skrying]

1.) Since when did being realisticmake your game better? Oh wait, it never did. Add to the fact that there is really nothing real about games these days, even the "hyper real" ones and it just makes me laugh when people bring up the idea of something be more realistic.

2.) Last I knew I had the righ to state what I thought about something. Maybe that's changed, but just because you're tired of hearing doesnt mean I have to stop saying it. Just simply ignore my posts if you're so tired of it.

3.) I love how everyone jumped on ban25 for his thoughts. He NEVER EVEN MENTIONED the words "real" or "fake" in the context you have put them into. Good job everyone. There is a difference between your typical FPS style game and shooting gallery games, and that is what he stated.

Fun, this thread has become crap. I'll remove it from my subscriptions now.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Fun, this thread has become crap.

Well, that happens when people keep saying the same exact thing over and over and over and over and...

 

[thundermonkey]

3.) I love how everyone jumped on ban25 for his thoughts. He NEVER EVEN MENTIONED the words "real" or "fake" in the context you have put them into. Good job everyone. There is a difference between your typical FPS style game and shooting gallery games, and that is what he stated.

*cough*

Actually, the freelook/fixed-center-reticle is what makes a PC FPS a real first person shooter, and a Wii game like Red Steel more of a shooting gallery game like Time Crisis.

He explicitly says that the fixed reticle makes a PC FPS a "real" FPS.

To the ignorant, or just plain stupid a FPS is a shooter set in the first person. A lightgun game like Time Crisis, is a lightgun game, usually a telling sign between a lightgun shooter and a FPS is direct control of player position. Not whether or not the reticle is stuck in the center of a screen. Otherwise under his definition GoldenEye is not a FPS, nor is TimeSplitters.

 

[Teasy]

i don't think so - on a mouse you can bump the tracking sensitivity ad infinitum, on a wiimote-like device you'd hit your arm's steadiness threshold pretty quick as it's your hand which is at the basis of the wiimote. eventually coping with such a steadiness threshold would cause excessive amounts of 'lifting the mouse', i.e. recentering the remote.

But you don't have to hold the Wii controller out at arms length. You can rest your hand on your knee or even the arm of a chair exactly the same as you would with a mouse, arm steadiness isn't an issue.

 

[Corwin_B]

I understand discussing specific examples of Wii games graphics in a Wii GPU thread, but is it really necessary to turn this thread in another "Wiimote bashing/Wiimote defense" fest ?

 

[Guden Oden]

steadiness isn't an issue.

Oh but it IS!

Comparing holding what is essentially a laser pointer (with a not totally insignificant weight to it) freely in the air to holding your hand cupped over an object that rests on a table, with a certain (though low) friction between the table surface and the object... It doesn't compare at all.

 

[OtakingGX]

Oh but it IS!

Comparing holding what is essentially a laser pointer (with a not totally insignificant weight to it) freely in the air to holding your hand cupped over an object that rests on a table, with a certain (though low) friction between the table surface and the object... It doesn't compare at all.

You just ignored the part of his post where he said you had an arm rest to steady yourself. Snipers lay down on the ground for two reasons: cover and steadiness.

I agree though that the mouse will be more steady. It is resting on a flat surface and has significant friction between it. The Wiimote will be in your hand, which due to the limitations of your fine motor control, will move and drift. I personally like the idea of this as it's more realistic to shooting a gun.

 

[Ty]

You just ignored the part of his post where he said you had an arm rest to steady yourself. Snipers lay down on the ground for two reasons: cover and steadiness.

I agree though that the mouse will be more steady. It is resting on a flat surface and has significant friction between it. The Wiimote will be in your hand, which due to the limitations of your fine motor control, will move and drift. I personally like the idea of this as it's more realistic to shooting a gun.

The weird thing for me is holding the Wiimote in my lap (for steadiness) AND moving the pointer around, aiming at the screen.

With a gun, I swing my arms while looking down the sights. With the Wiimote it sits there in my lap using my wrist to aim, which isn't quite used to that. This gets even weirder if the pointer is not fixed to the center of the screen IMO.

 

[darkblu]

With a gun, I swing my arms while looking down the sights. With the Wiimote it sits there in my lap using my wrist to aim, which isn't quite used to that. This gets even weirder if the pointer is not fixed to the center of the screen IMO.

the point is, you don't have to hold the wiimote this way - ideally you'd want to hold it as a gun, and that's what makes me very interested in any gun-handles types of add-ons. or complete gun-replica wiimotes, for that matter *dreams of Leon's arsenal in replicas, of proper realistic weight too*

for me, until i get such an add-on, i plan to use the remote as a lazer pointer - at an arm's distance before me. and before anybody says i'd get tired quickly - i'm a seasoned arcades lightgun user ; )

basically, i know from experience what OtakingGX said here is true:

The Wiimote will be in your hand, which due to the limitations of your fine motor control, will move and drift. I personally like the idea of this as it's more realistic to shooting a gun.

or IOW, for somebody like me who enjoys goint to the shooting range now and then, a wiimote-type of control is the better, more rewarding control scheme than gliding a tracking device over flat surface. is it the real thing - f'course not. but still it's better by far.

 

[Ty]

the point is, you don't have to hold the wiimote this way - ideally you'd want to hold it as a gun, and that's what makes me very interested in any gun-handles types of add-ons. or complete gun-replica wiimotes, for that matter *dreams of Leon's arsenal in replicas, of proper realistic weight too*

Sure but I replied with the context of holding in your lap when attempting to steady it, not holding it out from your body like a real gun. Believe me, I appreciate the flexibility of being able to interact in different forms. For me, I just don't think (without actually trying it mind you) playing an FPS with the remote in my lap works well. I'd have to hold it like you mention. Shooting from the hip is not an easy thing to master.

 

[Guden Oden]

You just ignored the part of his post where he said you had an arm rest to steady yourself.

I did no such thing.

Snipers lay down on the ground for two reasons: cover and steadiness.

Not comparable. When you're sniping, you're supporting the gun on the ground. When you hold the wiimote, only your hand supports it. The gun is heavier, sure, but crank up the sensitivity too much and your aim will become jittery due to muscle tremors. In fact, the whole view will become jittery, if the aim is fixed at the center of the screen like with PC shooters. I wouldn't want to play a game like that, it'll give some people one hell of a case of motion sickness, as for me I'd just get annoyed as hell. Suppose there's a sudden noise at a tense moment, like a monster jumps out of a closet or the phone rings or whatever, and when you jerk the view shakes like an earthquake just struck. Just shifting in your seat's going to set off on-screen earthquakes, it's simply not a feasible aiming system. Decoupling the aim from the view is the only way a pointer system is going to be a workable solution.

The Wiimote will be in your hand, which due to the limitations of your fine motor control, will move and drift. I personally like the idea of this as it's more realistic to shooting a gun.

I like it too, as long as my aim doesn't turn along with my digital on-screen head...

 

[OtakingGX]

Not comparable. When you're sniping, you're supporting the gun on the ground. When you hold the wiimote, only your hand supports it. The gun is heavier, sure, but crank up the sensitivity too much and your aim will become jittery due to muscle tremors. In fact, the whole view will become jittery, if the aim is fixed at the center of the screen like with PC shooters. I wouldn't want to play a game like that, it'll give some people one hell of a case of motion sickness, as for me I'd just get annoyed as hell. Suppose there's a sudden noise at a tense moment, like a monster jumps out of a closet or the phone rings or whatever, and when you jerk the view shakes like an earthquake just struck. Just shifting in your seat's going to set off on-screen earthquakes, it's simply not a feasible aiming system. Decoupling the aim from the view is the only way a pointer system is going to be a workable solution.

Snipers use bipods on their guns, which still isn't completely steady. Their body acts as the third leg holding up the gun, and it still drifts as they breathe and adjust their aim. I was trying to make the analogy between holding the Wiimote straight out as opposed to resting it in your lap is the same as trying to stand and shoot with a sniper rifle as opposed to using a bipod or sandbags. The second method in each case will significantly improve your accuracy.

And with the pointing feature there won't be a sensitivity to adjust. Maybe you can tell the hardware the size of your screen and that will affect sensitivity, but you can't crank up a sensitivity slider like you can on your mouse in Windows. The aiming will be achieved through use of the sensor bar and I don't get the impression that small movements will cause drastic effects onscreen.

 

[Ty]

Snipers use bipods on their guns, which still isn't completely steady. Their body acts as the third leg holding up the gun, and it still drifts as they breathe and adjust their aim. I was trying to make the analogy between holding the Wiimote straight out as opposed to resting it in your lap is the same as trying to stand and shoot with a sniper rifle as opposed to using a bipod or sandbags. The second method in each case will significantly improve your accuracy.

And with the pointing feature there won't be a sensitivity to adjust. Maybe you can tell the hardware the size of your screen and that will affect sensitivity, but you can't crank up a sensitivity slider like you can on your mouse in Windows. The aiming will be achieved through use of the sensor bar and I don't get the impression that small movements will cause drastic effects onscreen.

Snipers also don't swing the tip of their barrel around like you would expect in a console shooter. They aim at a single target, taking a long time to aim - not something you would expect to work in Metroid or Halo.

In addition, I'm not sure aiming in an FPS works that well with the remote in your lap as your wrist is the one doing the bulk of aiming (on a PC, it's normally your forearm when using a mouse). Certainly, I think, holding it out from your body like a pistol works best IMO.

 

[OtakingGX]

Snipers also don't swing the tip of their barrel around like you would expect in a console shooter. They aim at a single target, taking a long time to aim - not something you would expect to work in Metroid or Halo.

In addition, I'm not sure aiming in an FPS works that well with the remote in your lap as your wrist is the one doing the bulk of aiming (on a PC, it's normally your forearm when using a mouse). Certainly, I think, holding it out from your body like a pistol works best IMO.

I'm not trying to relate the Wiimote to a sniper rifle. I am saying that holding it straight out in front of you is akin to a sniper standing up to shoot.

How low do you have the sensitivity on your mouse? I can move my cursor from one edge of my screen to the other without lifting my wrist off the desk. In fact, my wrist never leaves the desk when using the mouse. For long play sessions, I'm positive the lap method will prevail.

 

[Ty]

I'm not trying to relate the Wiimote to a sniper rifle. I am saying that holding it straight out in front of you is akin to a sniper standing up to shoot.

My bad then for misunderstanding your attempt, however I think holding it out in front of you like a pistol will be the preferred method of interaction (something darkblu and I agree upon I think).

Just so I'm clear, your argument is that:

Holding Wiimote out in front of you is akin to standing up and firing a weapon whereas sitting down with the Wiimote in your lap is akin to firing from a prone position, yes? So you're only discussing the aspect of steadyiness, correct?

How low do you have the sensitivity on your mouse? I can move my cursor from one edge of my screen to the other without lifting my wrist off the desk. In fact, my wrist never leaves the desk when using the mouse. For long play sessions, I'm positive the lap method will prevail.

Sensitivity? Depends. When picking up an AWP, it swaps to lower speed. Otherwise it's pretty fast (some of us did something similiar in Tribes 1 with the Chaingun).

Have you tried aiming a laser pointer at your TV to simulate the feel?

If the Wiimote isn't that heavy, then prolonged gaming sessions might not be too harsh on the arms. For me, I really don't know until I can try a game with the Wiimote in my lap to see if the lack of precision is a deal breaker.

 

[Teasy]

Oh but it IS!

Comparing holding what is essentially a laser pointer (with a not totally insignificant weight to it) freely in the air to holding your hand cupped over an object that rests on a table, with a certain (though low) friction between the table surface and the object... It doesn't compare at all.

Please read again:-

But you don't have to hold the Wii controller out at arms length. You can rest your hand on your knee or even the arm of a chair exactly the same as you would with a mouse, arm steadiness isn't an issue.

Notice that the point of my post is that you don't need to hold the controller freely in the air if you don't want to.. Rest your hand on your knee or even on the arm of a chair and steadiness will not be an issue.

 

[Corwin_B]

People, could you please take the Wiimote discussion to another thread ?

Thanks in advance,

 

[djdev]

Back to Graphics

Ok, back to the graphics discussion, I was looking at the recent vid for Pokemon Battle Revolution adn comapred to the first video that was showed to Nintendo shareholders, it looks really downgraded. The original video looked like a next-gen game with nice depth of field, nice shading, high polygon models. This recent version looks more like a gamecube game. From the videos I saw, the characters aren't even directly hitting eachother it's disappionting.