Will Warner support Blu-ray part 2 ?

[Titanio]

Capacity is BR's only real true advantage. It has many disadvantages such as higher costs that need to be justified, the main justifiaction for those disadvantages is higher disc size. However, if those disc size are seen as overkill, then there's little justification for spending all the money to overhaul the manufacturing process and pay more money for discs. With VC1 anything over 25-30GB, or 3.5-4 hours, is overkill.

You're missing the point. You're still arguing like it's 2004. We're well past the point where technical arguments and advantages and disadvantages matter so much. Blu-ray's key advantages now are in its strategic position, it's industry support, its presence in certain key product(s). These things engender confidence in consumers to buy into the platform, and Blu-ray has these things now, far more than any other format.

On capacity, though - you still look at this solely through the lens of traditional home movie requirements. This is also a format for games, personal high definition recording (where more capacity certainly matters), storage and so forth. On movie content, though, studios absolutely will put boxsets and the like on one disc, and charge as much as they did previously - get used to it. The value is NOT in the number of discs - in fact from a consumer convenience point of view, the fewer the better.

 

[iknowall]

Vysez, lock this thread. This guy restarts the thread, and says its about news, and then proceeded to reopen the same argument.


You wanna reopen an argument? This is the same guy who claimed that DCT performs compression, when it does nothing of the sort. In fact, the output of DCT is bigger than the input, for example, taking an 8x8 input of 8-bit values, and producing an 8x8 output of 12-bit values.


"iknowall" knows absolutely nothing about how compression works. He's a search engine fisher, who plugs keywords into Google trying to find sentences supporting his argument, but in many cases, he is not even aware of the author's original point.

He quotes Amir who says there isn't much difference at high end bitrates, but ignores the fact that Amir has been the biggest pooh-pooher of Sony's decision to use MPEG-2 on BluRay. Amir most definately, does not advocate MPEG-2 for either HD-DVD or BR. Amir has pointed out time and time again, the problems with multilayer BR discs, as well as the added expense needed to make MPEG-2 look as good as VC-1.

We know for a fact, that MPEG-2 at 24Mbps is worse than H.264 and VC-1 at 16Mbps. And we know that Sony has no plans for 54Mbps MPEG-2 discs, so that's frankly a Red Herring.

Lock the thread, and is he creates another one, I vote for a ban. The guy's worse than DeadMeatGA.

Bwaaaaa.....the only one who is upset here are you, i don't know (beside i know all )
why you are so upset if you are wrong on something.

IF there is someone who need a ban, is the one who only want to make flamewar, memberwar,
and want to force every discussion to degenerate and every thread into a lock.

And here this only one is you.

Is clear you are the only one here that want to make a flame.

Discussing with you is a total waste of time. This is a clear example of why it is a waste of time :

H.264 and VC-1 at 80mpbs will have higher quality than MPEG-2 at 80mpbs, period. It's been shown in several scientific studies by SMPTE and others.

H.264 can produce better quality than MPEG-2 at both high bit rates and low bit rates. It is better across the board. Objective PSNR studies show it. Subjective perceptual tests show it. Both the SMPTE and ISO/ITU accept this.

As to the last comment, it is true that if the bit rate is sufficient high,
then any compression technology works just as well as the other.

I said you was wrong and for this i was accused to be troll, and a lot of users attacked me to demostrate that i was wrong.

Debate with you is a waste of time, and i don't have time to lose to discuss with someone who only want to make turn all into a member war.

Now that is proved that you was wrong, if you would be a civil and and intelligent person, you could have admitted to be wrong and could have tryed to make an intelligent discussion.

But no, here you go again , and instead to admit you was wrong and try to contribute to make a civil discussion , you came into this thread and you insult me, and you say that i have no clue , ecc. ecc. ecc.

Why ? Why you want to make this thread to degenerate and to have a lock ?

Is clear to you is more important make a flame waraganist me than everhting else.

You take way too seriously an internet fourm, now take a long breath , understand that this is only an internet forum and that be wrong on this point don't change your life, undestand that i could not care less about what you say or think about me , and finally you will undestand how much this member war aganist me is useless.

If after all of this, you will persist in your member war aganist me , i will report you to the mods of the forum hoping that they see how much you want to make impossibile the discussion with all your personal attacks.

I am not here to make a member war with you, i am here to share information with other users who like to discuss about information and news , not to waste time in a useless member war.

I also don't understand why some users, like Nao, are so aganist me even after the proof that i was flamed for a something where i was right.


Reguarding amirm , he is a developer of VC-1 , and he would have no benefit to tell that at hi bitrate you wont have any advantage using CV-1 over mpeg2 don't he ?

Like i said in the first post, for me the case is closed.

If anyone fell that Amir Majidimehr is wrong , is free to contact him in the AVS forum and discuss with him about it.

But to me the case is closed so i will not debate this point again, i will not debate with you again, i will discuss only about the news concenring blu ray like the actual and the future support aganist hd-dvd, and about what are the advantage for the game developers with blue ray aganist the normal DvD.

Titanio also has exposed in a exellent manner everithing could have be said about the mpeg2 encoding facilities , industrial experince and quality result .

Now let's talk go back on the topic.

I would like to ask, at someone that is a videogame programmer:

what pratical advantage would give you the more space on the blue ray over the normal dvd ?

 

[-tkf-]

Vysez, lock this thread. This guy restarts the thread, and says its about news, and then proceeded to reopen the same argument.

You forgot these golden examples of what not to post on this forum:

Discussing with you is a total waste of time. This is a clear example of why it is a waste of time

The fundamental issues is you don't understand is that someone who talk out of his ass

You always talk put of your ass.

what you are saying is bullshit

Obviously this guy stepped over the line more than one time, and he is plain wrong

 

[iknowall]

You forgot these golden examples of what not to post on this forum:

Obviously this guy stepped over the line more than one time, and he is plain wrong

It's not me the one who started to be offensive , this is where there is the first offensive post aganist me and this is the quote of the moderator :

so take your link and shove it.

Aaron, please, let's keep the discussion as civil as possible .

Look in the thread and before this post i never been offensive and i never insulted anyone.

Yes i made the error to begin aggressive also and reply when begin attaccked instead to ignore and report the fact to the mods.

I don't negate this.

I sure would have did better to ingnore democode also when he started to be offensive with me (he was also the one who started to be offensive with me) saying that what i say is " Complete and utter horseshit", calling me idiot , ecc.ecc., and this is the reason why the thread was closed.



And this is why i started this thread stating that i will not give attention again at who attempt to flame me and i will instead report this to the mods.

Now, if you don't have anything useful to add at this discussion, please leave.

I don't see the point to force this discussion to degenerate again.

 

[-tkf-]

The quality of the final disc has as much to do with a good encode as with the codec that is used in the first place.

"Good encode" as in the software that does the encode, the post proccessing on the video before it's encoded, the encoding bit budget, the encoding "technician" that goes through the "bit usage profile" and assigns more bit to problematic places.

The discussion (what i think was the discussion anyway) was: does MPEG2 vs H.264/VC-1 at high bitrate look just as good.,

I think it was pointed out from several thrustworthy sides and on a technical level as well that this is not the case, VC-1 and H.264 is superior in both low and very high bitrates.

Will we be able to see any difference between the codecs at 40mbit ? Well that depends on what we are using to display the picture, size, resolution etc.

 

[iknowall]

I think it was pointed out from several thrustworthy sides and on a technical level as well that this is not the case, VC-1 and H.264 is superior in both low and very high bitrates.

Well i think that we can trust more the creator of the VC-1 codec than any site in the world, expecially considering he would not have any advantage saying this

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well i think that we can trust more the creator of the VC-1 codec than any site in the world, expecially considering he would not have any advantage saying this

those comments were casual comments, in layman's terms. why the hell do you cling to them like it's some sort of undiniable statement of fact.

he doesn't even qualify what "sufficiently high" is! For al lyou know he could be referring to a 80mbps bit-rate, which means nothing in a discussion about which looks better at 40mbps. Point is you are taking his comments out of context, and twisting them to support your point. It's weak, it's paper thin, and everyone can see right through it.

Quit making a fool of yourself, part of being able to debate like an adult is ADMIT when you are wrong, stubbornly refusing to accept the facts just makes you look childish.

 

[iknowall]

those comments were casual comments, in layman's terms. why the hell do you cling to them like it's some sort of undiniable statement of fact.

he doesn't even qualify what "sufficiently high" is! For al lyou know he could be referring to a 80mbps bit-rate, which means nothing in a discussion about which looks better at 40mbps.

Well even if he was refering to 80mpbs i was flamed when i said that at 80mbps mpeg4 don't give more quality.

H.264 and VC-1 at 80mpbs will have higher quality than MPEG-2 at 80mpbs, period. It's been shown in several scientific studies by SMPTE and others.

Point is you are taking his comments out of context, and twisting them to support your point. It's weak, it's paper thin, and everyone can see right through it.

Quit making a fool of yourself, part of being able to debate like an adult is ADMIT when you are wrong, stubbornly refusing to accept the facts just makes you look childish.

You are so biased aganist me that in your attemp to flame me you forgot that the point of the discussion was that at any hi bitrate mpeg4 is superior to mpeg2.

But since you say i take his comment out of its context, this is the context where it came from :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...e=556&pp=30&highlight=WM9+codec+at+hi+bitrare

The user "Grubert " in his thread asked if this information from a website is bullshit of not "However, if we use very high bit rates, which will be used by future formats the difference is much less important." it's stated clearly an hi bitrate availbe in a future format, it was not a general statement about any possible hi bitrate.


Now please i say to all the "heaters" to leave this thread so we that have interest in posting and commenting blu-ray news can go on without to deal to all the off topic comments.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I'd like to 2nd DemoCoders request for locking this thread. It's going to go nowhere, all the necessary evidence was presented in the first thread if anyone wants to learn about the differences in the codecs. This thread will serve no useful purpose.

 

[Slides]

Just posting news, don't know if it means anything.

HP Enters HD DVD Promotions Group,

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage/display/20051218235604.html

 

[Bobbler]

Just posting news, don't know if it means anything.

HP Enters HD DVD Promotions Group,

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage/display/20051218235604.html

I'm surprised nobody posted this earlier -- I saw it last night but didn't have the time to post it (and I couldn't get the link at work today).

It seems like its a bit late to be pulling this kind of stunt -- but HP just says it will offer both drives depending on users needs. They probably just to want piss off the BR consortium a bit.

 

[aaronspink]

blah, blah, blah

Hmm, I think I've heard this before...

Now that is proved that you was wrong, if you would be a civil and and intelligent person, you could have admitted to be wrong and could have tryed to make an intelligent discussion.

We have been civil and intelligent. I'm not sure you, on the other hand, actually understand what you are quoting.

Why ? Why you want to make this thread to degenerate and to have a lock ?

because it is a pointless thread, arguing with you, who has no idea what you are actually talking about and quoting the same BS you did in the other thread which you really don't understand.

If after all of this, you will persist in your member war aganist me , i will report you to the mods of the forum hoping that they see how much you want to make impossibile the discussion with all your personal attacks.

be my guest.

Reguarding amirm , he is a developer of VC-1 , and he would have no benefit to tell that at hi bitrate you wont have any advantage using CV-1 over mpeg2 don't he ?

Um, by high bit rate he is effectivelly talking about the point that MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 degenerate into MJPEG. Yes at those bit rates (which are around 250Mb/s for full frame HD content), MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 are approximately the same. But then why use MPEG2/MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 at those bit rates?

At any reasonable distrobution level bit rates MPEG2 is both less efficient and has lower quality than MPEG4/AVC/VC-1.

If anyone fell that Amir Majidimehr is wrong , is free to contact him in the AVS forum and discuss with him about it.

Oh, he's not really wrong, you just don't understand what he is saying. Which isn't so supprising.

But to me the case is closed so i will not debate this point again, i will not debate with you again, i will discuss only about the news concenring blu ray like the actual and the future support aganist hd-dvd, and about what are the advantage for the game developers with blue ray aganist the normal DvD.

This is either the second or third time you've said this, I'm sure everyone else will agree with me, we would be happy if you stopped debating this since you are wrong.

what pratical advantage would give you the more space on the blue ray over the normal dvd ?

It will allow square to not actually coding a game engine and instead just have 4+ hours of video segments that the user will negotiate. This will allow them to stop dealling with those little things like actual gameplay.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[Titanio]

It will allow square to not actually coding a game engine and instead just have 4+ hours of video segments that the user will negotiate. This will allow them to stop dealling with those little things like actual gameplay.

Such a commonly voiced argument for one that is ringing increasingly hollow. A number of devs, not just RPG makers, have now either voiced concern about fitting everything on a DVD or alternately, enthusiasm for Blu-ray.

 

[aaronspink]

Such a commonly voiced argument for one that is ringing increasingly hollow. A number of devs, not just RPG makers, have now either voiced concern about fitting everything on a DVD or alternately, enthusiasm for Blu-ray.

I think a lot of this is overblown. Currently we are running at about 4GB per game with a reasonable portion of the textures uncompressed. Looking at what is actually needed to fill 8GB in a game, I really don't see people filling up a DVD9 let alone a BR disk without a lot of FMV.

 

[Titanio]

I think a lot of this is overblown. Currently we are running at about 4GB per game with a reasonable portion of the textures uncompressed. Looking at what is actually needed to fill 8GB in a game, I really don't see people filling up a DVD9 let alone a BR disk without a lot of FMV.

Well devs are already disagreeing. For example, Mark Rein was talking a little while ago about using most of the space on a BR disc (!), and pondered how exactly they were going to fit everying on one DVD for GoW. His engine is going into a lot of next-gen games, too..

 

[aaronspink]

Well devs are already disagreeing. For example, Mark Rein was talking a little while ago about using most of the space on a BR disc (!), and pondered how exactly they were going to fit everying on one DVD for GoW. His engine is going into a lot of next-gen games, too..

Well, that's Mark Rein for ya. Looking at the space actually required for say UT2004, they would roughly have to quadruple their data storage needs to fill a DVD9 disk. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I'm fairly sceptical about it.

The textures aren't going to change significantly from what is already on the PC, so the only areas that could really expand are model details and video. Model details will increase somewhat, but don't eat up a significant portion of the storage size currently. So that leaves FMV as the primary fill, which will be undergoing a roughly 4-5 increase in size for HD.

But personally, I'm under the belief that if the format limits the amount of FMV, then all the better.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself.

 

[iknowall]

Hmm, I think I've heard this before...

We have been civil and intelligent. I'm not sure you, on the other hand, actually understand what you are quoting.

because it is a pointless thread, arguing with you, who has no idea what you are actually talking about and quoting the same BS you did in the other thread which you really don't understand.

be my guest.

Ok now leave.

Um, by high bit rate he is effectivelly talking about the point that MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 degenerate into MJPEG. Yes at those bit rates (which are around 250Mb/s for full frame HD content), MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 are approximately the same. But then why use MPEG2/MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 at those bit rates?

No they was talking about an hi bitrate availbe in the next generation discs :

if we use very high bit rates, which will be used by future formats the difference is much less important."

At any reasonable distrobution level bit rates MPEG2 is both less efficient and has lower quality than MPEG4/AVC/VC-1.

No read again the question was about an hi bitrare availbe on the next generation discs,
not at a therorically infinite hi bitrate.

It sure can relate more with a dual layer blu ray discs , where the space let a very hi bitrare to be used.

Oh, he's not really wrong, you just don't understand what he is saying. Which isn't so supprising.

This is either the second or third time you've said this, I'm sure everyone else will agree with me, we would be happy if you stopped debating this since you are wrong.

See above

It will allow square to not actually coding a game engine and instead just have 4+ hours of video segments that the user will negotiate. This will allow them to stop dealling with those little things like actual gameplay.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

Ok cool now leave please.

 

[-tkf-]

Now please i say to all the "heaters" to leave this thread so we that have interest in posting and commenting blu-ray news can go on without to deal to all the off topic comments.

If you left everything would improve..

And:

the difference is much less important

So how much is less important?

If h.264 is better, no matter what margin, it's better..

Imagine 200 inch screens with 1080p projectors, if i wanted to keep the same "unperfect" quality as i have on a DVD that would in MPEG2 terms equal 35mbit* just to keep the DVD quality, which i might add, isn't perfect (by far)..

I hope they use h.264 @ 35mbit so i actually get an improved picture as well, not just the same...

* 1920*1080 = 5 times the pixel compared to 720*576.
DVD Average bitrate = 7 mbit (superbit) * 5 = 35mbit

 

[Titanio]

Well, that's Mark Rein for ya. Looking at the space actually required for say UT2004, they would roughly have to quadruple their data storage needs to fill a DVD9 disk. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I'm fairly sceptical about it.

Well he talked about "Unreal Tournament" occupying 6GB, compressed (though my DVD says UT2004 occupies 3.64GB - although I don't know if the lack of a HDD would affect that figure and how much would need to be on the disc). More generally he said he sees next-gen games being 20GB+. I guessing given his proximity to Epic's development, he knows where things are headed with them in terms of capacity requirements with their upcoming games, more than you or I would..

There was a time when UT would have come on 1 CD..but then UT2004 came along and it was 6. Your argument sounds like one heard many a time through history

 

[aaronspink]

Ok now leave.

after you, brutus.

No they was talking about an hi bitrate availbe in the next generation discs :

Um, no, the text to which he replied was, he was making a more general comment. and immediately after the comment enforced that it didn't apply to BR/HD-DVD because neither will support data rates that are high enough. GAFC.

No read again the question was about an hi bitrare availbe on the next generation discs,
not at a therorically infinite hi bitrate.

The reply was not. At the bitrates available in next gen formats MPEG4/AVC/VC-1 provide better quality. But you are apparently too pig headed to realize it.

Yeah yeah i don't undestand i'm always wrong, ecc ecc , now leave.

The first step on the road to recovery is admitting your faults. Now that you have done this, you might start by actually reading relavent technical papers and getting a better general understanding of the actual processes and algorithims used in video compression technologies. I can only assume you'll have to stop posting for quite a while to catch up. During that time, since you won't be posting nonsense here, it will seems like i've left.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.