The FlowFX noise.

[Nappe1]

I have read comments about this across board, but decided to start new thread to collect comments below one single topic considering this...

due my own ISP having DNS problem connecting here, I am using school computer, so don't expect immediate replys from me.

anyways, if Anand's measures are true, Flow FX cooling running on full speed, gives noise of 77dB.

In Finland, when working enviroment noise get over 85 dB during more than 10 minutes, you have to use ear plugs. So, IMO, FlowFX isn't just annoying noisy, but is also close to reach safety marigins to cause noise hearing related symptoms (headache, sickness, tired feeling, etc.) in long time use. I don't mean this would be problem to "normal" ppl but if you have better than average hearing, headaces caused by FlowFX could be possible. (I used to keep my computer running 24/7, but after updgrading from Classic Radeon to 9700 non-pro, I had to stop that, because I simply didn't get sleep computer on. After listening boot up with 9700 and GeForce FX I got some sort of scale how that thing would sound on my room. It actually scared me.)

EDIT: fixed source to Anands, which was the correct one: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1779&p=3
"To further extend the comparison, the GeForce FX 5800 weighed in at 77 dBA on our sound meter with the fan spun all the way up vs. 64 dBA on the Radeon 9700 Pro"

 

[Tahir2]

I think the opposite is true also, if you have lower hearing levels than the average you are straining more often to hear. With something whining away at 77dB or as Brent said about 60dB from 3 feet away (reasonable distance from your computer case), you could get that nightclub affect where after dancing away and listening to loud music all the time you realise that, after leavng the club, your hearing has been toned down and you have to shout to even hear yourself speak!

 

[Mariner]

I wouldn't even consider purchasing the GFFX with the ridiculous cooling system. I thought the improvements supposedly attainable by reducing process size were: Smaller, Faster, Cooler (and therefore less cooling needed).

What we actually seem to have is Smaller, Faster, (Much!) Hotter with more cooling needed.

The next graphics card I buy (probably won't be until the end of this year) will have passive cooling, I've decided, as I'm sick of noisy computers! The Zalman heatsinks seem a good idea and I'd like to see such coolers become more of a standard feature of cards.

Does anyone know if the forthcoming RV350 which is reputed to be a 0.13 micron chip will be produced under the low-k dielectric process? As I understand it this will allow cooler running or higher clocks. I'd expect the NV35 refresh/R400 to be produced this way, but is the RV350 too early for this?

 

[Volenti]

I think the opposite is true also, if you have lower hearing levels than the average you are straining more often to hear. With something whining away at 77dB or as Brent said about 60dB from 3 feet away (reasonable distance from your computer case), you could get that nightclub affect where after dancing away and listening to loud music all the time you realise that, after leavng the club, your hearing has been toned down and you have to shout to even hear yourself speak!

there's a big difference between a constant (if annoying) 60db and the 105-110+ db you'll get in a nightclub, I'm a fairly "average" male and my normal speech volume often peaks in the high 70's db, for example.

not that I condone the introduction of noisy cooling solutions...

 

[epicstruggle]

At what clockspeeds will there not be a need for such an extreme cooling solution. Curious because if rumors are correct the r400 will be go from .15 to .13. this might require them to also have something so extreme to cool it.

later,

 

[Tahir2]

Hmm I wonder if we are going to see some watercooled or modded GFFX soon, first from enthusiasts and then some of the larger companies. However if the standard reference design necessitates the FX FLOW cooling system then I guess not.

Another thing, is Hercules going to produce any GFFX based cards? And didn't they have a watercooled Radeon 9700 Pro (may have been another company)?

 

[MuFu]

I'd expect the NV35 refresh/R400 to be produced this way, but is the RV350 too early for this?

Yes I believe so. On low-K it would be too expensive and too fast (or "too cool", at-speed - either way it's a problem).

MuFu.

 

[Sharkfood]

85db is nowhere NEAR 77db. Realize this system of measuring noise level isn't linear, so as db range increases, the volume of noise increases quite dramatically (almost exponentially).

As described around a couple website, normal speech/conversation is right around 72db. A loud, live rock concert that incurs hearing damage is about 90db. 72db is "audible"- 90db is ear numbing.

 

[kid_crisis]

from extremetech's review:

"Radeon 9700 Pro's baseline sound level was about 54dB SPL...The GeForceFX is a different story, however. Its baseline sound level was also around 54dB SPL, but upon starting up a 3D app, the Flow FX fan kicked into high gear, and the sound level rose to around 58dB SPL"

I don't know where the 77 dBa was measured, but it must have been right at the outtake vent. The difference between 58 dBa and 54 dBa, while not being insignificant, is not all that huge.

Actaully, you could probably make a case for the 9700's fan being louder, it just is insulated a bit more because it doesn't have a vent linking it directly to the outside world.

 

[MuFu]

85db is nowhere NEAR 77db. Realize this system of measuring noise level isn't linear, so as db range increases, the volume of noise increases quite dramatically (almost exponentially).

Well done for pointing that out. Psychoacoustically spekaing, 85dB is about twice as loud as 77dB.

At 85dB your ears can actually attenuate noice by about -20dB as a protection reflex. Takes a little while to kick in though, hence people getting their eardrums shafted by sudden, "not that loud" SPL.

MuFu.

 

[KnightBreed]

I don't know where the 77 dBa was measured, but it must have been right at the outtake vent. The difference between 58 dBa and 54 dBa, while not being insignificant, is not all that huge.

Anand put up some .AVI's. The case was open and the camcorder was a few inches from the top of the card.

 

[Babel-17]

Off Topic:

Thanks for the tip on "Firefly" epicstruggle!

 

[Joe DeFuria]

At what clockspeeds will there not be a need for such an extreme cooling solution. Curious because if rumors are correct the r400 will be go from .15 to .13. this might require them to also have something so extreme to cool it.

There's no real way to answer to that. Clockspeed alone does not dictate the need for any particular amount of heat removal. Much depends on the design of the chip itself. It's possible that an R-400 running at 300 Mhz could require such cooling...it's also possible that an R-400 would have to run at 1 GHz before requiring such cooling.

All I am pretty certain about, is that given the choice, the IHVs would prefer NOT to have expensive / noisy / obtrusive cooling solutions.

On a related note....

Anyone have any definitive info ono if the "non-ultra" variant will or will not have FX Flow?

 

[nggalai]

At what clockspeeds will there not be a need for such an extreme cooling solution. Curious because if rumors are correct the r400 will be go from .15 to .13. this might require them to also have something so extreme to cool it.

Difficult to answer. Example: Sapphire is releasing a passively cooled Radeon9700Pro soon. Hardly anybody would have thought this possible, as a normal retail product. On the other hand side, you have the GFFX which, despite the extreme cooling measures, still heats up to about 65°C on the backside of the card.

ta,
-Sascha.rb

 

[Entropy]

At 85dB your ears can actually attenuate noice by about -20dB as a protection reflex. Takes a little while to kick in though, hence people getting their eardrums shafted by sudden, "not that loud" SPL.
MuFu.

Mufu, I'm afraid that the hearing protection you are talking about is a bit of an urban legend. While there is an attenuation kicking in, it is incapable of protecting you from extended exposure. I'll not pretend to know the evolutional causes of why it is there in the first place, but it is not for long term exposure. The muscles that perform the tensioning soon revert to their previous state.

People arranging loud concerts for kids are at roughly the same moral level as the ones who sell crack at schools. Never mind that the kids like it - they like drugs too. :-/
Headphones are probably the greatest source of hearing damage today though. I've seen high estimates that roughly 50 million americans suffer from tinnitus. When this generation grows older.... Investing in producers of hearing aids may be a good idea.

Entropy

 

[nutball]

At what clockspeeds will there not be a need for such an extreme cooling solution. Curious because if rumors are correct the r400 will be go from .15 to .13. this might require them to also have something so extreme to cool it.

Difficult to answer. Example: Sapphire is releasing a passively cooled Radeon9700Pro soon. Hardly anybody would have thought this possible, as a normal retail product. On the other hand side, you have the GFFX which, despite the extreme cooling measures, still heats up to about 65°C on the backside of the card.

ta,
-Sascha.rb

Anybody care to speculate how much the GFFX heat problem is down to the core, and how much is down to the crazy-clocked memory?

 

[Brent]

At what clockspeeds will there not be a need for such an extreme cooling solution. Curious because if rumors are correct the r400 will be go from .15 to .13. this might require them to also have something so extreme to cool it.

Difficult to answer. Example: Sapphire is releasing a passively cooled Radeon9700Pro soon. Hardly anybody would have thought this possible, as a normal retail product. On the other hand side, you have the GFFX which, despite the extreme cooling measures, still heats up to about 65°C on the backside of the card.

ta,
-Sascha.rb

Anybody care to speculate how much the GFFX heat problem is down to the core, and how much is down to the crazy-clocked memory?

The back heatsink seems to only be covering the memory modudules on the back, and it is that heatsink that got up to 145F during load. The front part, pipes and front part of the heatsink plate didn't get as hot as the back plate. But it was still blowing hot air out the exhaust in the higher 90's F at full load.

 

[Doomtrooper]

The back heatsink would only be passive cooling while the front is liquid cooled with the heatpipe...normally like on the Zalman cooler the vacuum sealed pipe extends around the back side where the cooling fins are and heat is exchanged, but on the FX they are using that space for the giant cooler...so the heat pipes are left on the front and heat is exchanged into the fins near the exhaust..from the pics the rear ram sink is relying only on passive cooling.

 

[MuFu]

At 85dB your ears can actually attenuate noice by about -20dB as a protection reflex. Takes a little while to kick in though, hence people getting their eardrums shafted by sudden, "not that loud" SPL.
MuFu.

Mufu, I'm afraid that the hearing protection you are talking about is a bit of an urban legend. While there is an attenuation kicking in, it is incapable of protecting you from extended exposure. I'll not pretend to know the evolutional causes of why it is there in the first place, but it is not for long term exposure. The muscles that perform the tensioning soon revert to their previous state.

I didn't know that, thanks. Interesting... I heard about the said reflex a while ago and presumed it was actually of some benefit. "Urban Legend" indeed!

Just out of curiosity, is this vocational or just general knowledge of yours? I've always had a lazy interest in audio engineering and psychoacoustics through playing piano/drums and dabbling a bit in home cinema and music tech. I'm doing EE and compsys at uni but might look to that kinda thing when it comes to career choices. Certainly seems like an interesting field...

MuFu.

 

[Bambers]

I listned to the mp3 on thg (only thing useful in that review ). Reminded me of delta 60mm fan that I used to have running on the full 12v (I had it at 5v most of the time). It's got to be bad when it starts to drown out the beep :|