PS3 and Linux

[winstonsmith1978]

These might be some really stupid questions but i'm going to ask anyway. If the PS3 HDD comes with linux, does that make the PS3 a full computer? Meaning you'll be able to hook up a usb2 keyboard and mouse and run Linux based software off of it?

or will there be alot of software bugs because it's linux running on a cell and rsx?

When software is created for an OS like Windows or Linux, is the OS more important or the hardware?

I'm just trying to figure out if PS3 Linux is going to be a real computer or a baby computer.

 

[AlphaWolf]

These might be some really stupid questions but i'm going to ask anyway. If the PS3 HDD comes with linux, does that make the PS3 a full computer? Meaning you'll be able to hook up a usb2 keyboard and mouse and run Linux based software off of it?

or will there be alot of software bugs because it's linux running on a cell and rsx?

When software is created for an OS like Windows or Linux, is the OS more important or the hardware?

I'm just trying to figure out if PS3 Linux is going to be a real computer or a baby computer.

It totally depends upon the implementation. I really doubt you are going to see full computer functionality, but it's possible.

 

[Asher]

I'm pretty excited about this, I'd love to write my own programs using Cell as a hobby.

 

[pegisys]

I'm pretty excited about this, I'd love to write my own programs using Cell as a hobby.

I definitely don't see that happening, the system would be to open and piracy would run rampid

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

Humm,

I definitely don't see that happening, the system would be to open and piracy would run rampid

There have been rumors surrounding the 8th SPE being disabled; not because of yield issues, but rather for security purposes. That the 8th SPE will run in the background with all types of security programs that will combat any possible hardware & network threats. And since the 8th SPE isn’t game developer or Linux user accessible; this would at least to some degree insure Sony Cell Network wouldn’t come under attack. How does all this work!?! Who knows!?! Its just a rumor anyhow……….

Sony has previously said that of the 8 SPE’s on the Cell chip (seen to the right), only 7 of them will be active. The last one will not. This would allow for a higher wafer yield, allowing more usable chips per wafer. Why? Because if there’s a flaw in the manufacturing of a processor, it could be that it only affects one SPE. That SPE would be disabled, and the chip would be otherwise fine. This is a great idea, actually, and will help in keeping down the cost of the PS3.

But Hannibal over at ars technica got a strange tip about an alternate use for the eighth SPE. And that is that it is “reserved for exclusive use by system security and DRM-related processesâ€. Far be it from me to squash rumours, so I won’t this time. This is the first I’ve heard of this and it comes from total left field. Plus it would increase the cost of the Cell processor. Plus Sony has said that this is not what the SPE would be for. But then, Sony has put some pretty nasty copy protection on CDs as of late. So… you can draw your own conclusions.

And there are whole articles or summaries dealing with SPE being used for security issues; thus giving this rumor some credibility of being possible.

 

[Platon]

The problem I see with having an SPE used for protection would be that the cost for the cell would be higher. I could see them using the 7th SPE for security leaving 6 SPEs to play with which should be more than enough anyway...

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

The problem I see with having an SPE used for protection would be that the cost for the cell would be higher. I could see them using the 7th SPE for security leaving 6 SPEs to play with which should be more than enough anyway...

I never understood that!?!

Why would an active SPE cost more than a deactivated one?

Especially since the deactivated 8th SPE doesn’t disappear from the Cell die design.

Or are you talking about a volume versus yield issue? Meaning...allowing the 8th SPE to be activated (even if the yield process has improved to allow it) this will drive down the volume of Cell processors being made.

Edit: However, I would like too point out using a SPE (especially 8th SPE) only for security issue seems like an overkill given the processors tremendous processing capabilities.

 

[Bad_Boy]

I think i remember hearing a rumor like that, and something about the 8th SPE would be used for the PS3 Operating system, but i didnt pay it any attention.

Edit: However, I would like too point out using a SPE (especially 8th SPE) only for security issue seems like an overkill given the processors tremendous processing capabilities.

I dont think it would be that much of a overkill if combined with the OS. Didnt sony hint at being able to bring up a hd movie, web cam video, music, at anytime while in a game or something of that sort? Maybe Pulling up the main menu stuff up without "returning to Home" like the psp would be useful. In game memory management? Other features I cant think of off the top of my head might be useful also.

 

[Titanio]

I think it's likely the 8th SPE is deactivated for yield purposes, but that the 7th would be held by the OS - for these purposes, and others.

 

[Phil]

I definitely don't see that happening, the system would be to open and piracy would run rampid

Sony already offered this more or less with the PS2-linuxkit, without the piracy implications (Piracy specific units (IOP) are locked from the developer). I could see a similar thing with the PS3 if they'd go that way. I'd love to get my hands on CELL....

 

[Nite_Hawk]

The biggest thing that will limit the PS3 from being a "real" computer is the lack of system memory. 512MB (assuming that you can get at all 512!) is a bit small. Granted it's much better than the PS2 was, but otherwise the machine should be quite sufficient for doing most computerish tasks.

I sincerely hope that Sony isn't so stupid as to try to hamfist DRM into linux and expect developers to support it. They need to be really careful about how the approach the linux community right now. The whole DRM rootkit fiasco with their CDs is still fresh in everyone's minds and this would not earn them any good will. If they are serious about linux support, they need to figure out where thier priorities lay. If the Cell hardware is really as good as it looks, people will eventually get around their DRM anyway. They might as well accept it and earn some good will in the process.

Nite_Hawk

 

[Carl B]

I don't think that the rootkit drama though is going to discourage those who would like to homebrew on Cell/Linux/PS3 though. It's a totally different angle of personal interest to approach somethign from. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 only ran 'signed' software, but I think we could look to the supposed upcoming PSP model for guidance:

...Kawanishi also mentioned that Sony is presently considering whether or not to offer downloadable games for the PSP. In addition, they are discussing whether they might allow for games created by users to be distributed online as well; no doubt a great opportunity for exposure and fun in the homebrew community should it come to pass...

Article

Now, I haven't heard any movement on this out of Sony since that commentary out of Kawanishi, but I sincerely hope if any sort of PS3 'marketplace' does come into being, homebrewers will be given a fair crack at it.

PS - On the 8th SPE issue, totally for yields.

PPS - 512 MB of system memory should be fine I think. Future apps may become more memory-hungry, but as it stands now running a modern PC on 512 MBs of RAM isn't all that painful.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

I don't think that the rootkit drama though is going to discourage those who would like to homebrew on Cell/Linux/PS3 though. It's a totally different angle of personal interest to approach somethign from. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 only ran 'signed' software, but I think we could look to the supposed upcoming PSP model for guidance:



Article

Now, I haven't heard any movement on this out of Sony since that commentary out of Kawanishi, but I sincerely hope if any sort of PS3 'marketplace' does come into being, homebrewers will be given a fair crack at it.

PS - On the 8th SPE issue, totally for yields.

PPS - 512 MB of system memory should be fine I think. Future apps may become more memory-hungry, but as it stands now running a modern PC on 512 MBs of RAM isn't all that painful.

They may get some homebrewers, but I believe a good portion of linux developers won't develop for it if it only runs signed code (that is, only code signed by Sony). I know I will not be if this is the case. The only kind of DRM I'm willing to accept is one in which I personally have the abililty to sign binaries that should be run. In this case DRM is actually a nice thing. Otherwise, I have no intention of letting them have that kind of control over my system. I will turn to alternatives (even if they are slower), before that happens.

Nite_Hawk

 

[Carl B]

They may get some homebrewers, but I believe a good portion of linux developers won't develop for it if it only runs signed code (that is, only code signed by Sony). I know I will not be if this is the case. The only kind of DRM I'm willing to accept is one in which I personally have the abililty to sign binaries that should be run. In this case DRM is actually a nice thing. Otherwise, I have no intention of letting them have that kind of control over my system. I will turn to alternatives (even if they are slower), before that happens.

Nite_Hawk

Nite Hawk I understand the sort of 'license to create' you're looking for, but realistically in the 'walled-garden' world of console online gaming, I'm not sure I'd *want* my PS3 to be able to run unsigned apps. I myself can excercise good judgement, but as a consumer electronics device first and foremost, it just opens the door for too much drama to occur. For better or for worse, Cell is as much designed to be a DRM monster as it is to be anything else. I mean but you can still grab the free development kit off of IBM's site and begin exploring if you want. There may be an alternative at some point for a Cell-device that is not a PS3, or someone might just plain crack the system.

 

[Urian]

If Linux comes to to PS3 will be in the next form:

-Linux Kernel (remember that linux is a kernel).
-Non-GPL tools for completing the system and making it more Unix like.
-BSD Tools.
-POSIX API
-Sony propietary API for programming.
-No support for KDE and GNOME, Sony propietary desktop.

All the package will be comercial with the BSD license and all the additions that the PS3 Linux groups will do in PS3 could be used by any other for their commercial games, the only part that will be GPL will be the Linux Kernel, all the programs that we will do with PS3 Linux will have the BSD License.

 

[one]

nevermind.

 

[Npl]

I guess it will be very regular Linux with a few encrypted device-drivers which wont allow access to the Bios or original PS3-Disc.
Shipping a Linux which only can run signed code is nonsense, you cant develop and debug on such a system. Cell-ISA is already public, RSX will be programmed through OpenGL, so so theres no new information to gain for crackers (besides the hope for security-holes).

 

[Evil_Cloud]

I wonder if Sony will try to label PS3 as a computer, rather than a games console. They could import it into Europe and North-Amerika with lower taxes. If they have a very capable Linux OS, could they pull this off? They might get a very small price advantage through it, but considering the amounts PlayStation and PlayStation 2 sold, it could save them some money.

 

[Carl B]

I wonder if Sony will try to label PS3 as a computer, rather than a games console. They could import it into Europe and North-Amerika with lower taxes. If they have a very capable Linux OS, could they pull this off? They might get a very small price advantage through it, but considering the amounts PlayStation and PlayStation 2 sold, it could save them some money.

Yeah, they'll try to do this. They tried with PS2 even, and I believe that with PS3 they have a good shot at it - if they have the Linux ready to go at launch.

 

[Bobbler]

I wonder if Sony will try to label PS3 as a computer, rather than a games console. They could import it into Europe and North-Amerika with lower taxes. If they have a very capable Linux OS, could they pull this off? They might get a very small price advantage through it, but considering the amounts PlayStation and PlayStation 2 sold, it could save them some money.

They did exactly that with the PS2 (part of the reason for making the PS2 linux kit), I believe.