PS3 AC/DC Adapter?

[The GameMaster]

It's like this... if you think the Cell processor is going to run cooling and consume less power than XENON... think again. People are entitled to their opinions though and frankly we will not know for sure until we have the processor and we can test it for ourselves.

By all reports the Cell processor consumes more power and puts out more heat than a high end Pentium 4 processor... and for good reason considering the clock speeds and transistor count. Ken Kutaragi also indicated that the processor consumes a great deal of power.

I will also offer this piece of information from another site...

http://news.com.com/Cell+chip+Hit+or+hype/2010-1006_3-5568046.html

Power: Cell will have to be air-cooled, IBM said. In other words, fans will probably be required. Ever talk on a cell phone with a fan?

While IBM didn't disclose the exact heat statistics, some at ISSCC said it could run as hot as 130 watts, more than most desktop and notebook chips. If Cell is in this range, kids will really be huddled around the PlayStation 3 at Christmas--for warmth.

On the cool engineering side, however, the chip will come with 10 digital heat sensors to warn of problems and another sensor to regulate temperature.

I have seen no evidence as of yet that the Cell CPU has it's heat and power issues under control or at least to a point where it is usable in a console enviroment... I will tell you that processors that put out as much heat as a Pentium 4 or a Geforce video card is not exactly very tolerable in a console enviroment. Time will tell though...

 

[Edge]

While IBM didn't disclose the exact heat statistics, some at ISSCC said it could run as hot as 130 watts, more than most desktop and notebook chips. If Cell is in this range, kids will really be huddled around the PlayStation 3 at Christmas--for warmth.

At what clock speed? Going from 3.2 GHz to 4 GHz for example is huge difference in power output. So that quote you provided is rather meaningless without knowing the clock speed.

 

[PC-Engine]

At what clock speed? Going from 3.2 GHz to 4 GHz for example is huge difference in power output. So that quote you provided is rather meaningless without knowing the clock speed.

If it was at 4GHz, bringing it down to 3.2GHz would still make it a hot running chip unless you actually believe the power consumption would come down to 60 Watts or lower.

 

[aaronspink]

Well, what you did in reality is you tossed out some arbitrary numbers based on...well...nothing really, and now you call that a 'pretty good estimate'? Man, I wouldn't want you to do the calculations for a future space mission or something like that, considering how you perform your pretty good estimates!

Think you can do better? Then go for it.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[aaronspink]

I agree with others here, you're pulling numbers out of thin air, and based on it nothing but your own guesses.

Actually, no. The vast majority of my numbers come from educated extrapulations based on numbers that are already there.

I just might know a little bit about microprocessors, vlsi design, and semiconductor engineering, physics, and processing.

What, do you seriously think that the PS3 is going to come under 220 watts?

What do you know of Sony's 90 nm process?

At best it is comparable to IBMs.

Do you know of any power saving techniques that Sony is using for CELL?

Yes, do you know that the vast majority of these power saving techniques do squat when running full out which is where power supply and delivery must be spec'd.

Do you know the voltage that Sony has decided on?

Likely 1.0 to 1.2 volts depending on the individual parts in order to maximize 3.2 GHz yields.

 

[Carl B]

Don't get all wedded to the schmoo plots from ISSCC. There is a long and storied tradition of "prototype" parts at ISSCC being hot bin/lots. Actual production yielding of the parts, etc will likely result in higher power requirements.

I've previously given a pretty good estimate of the floor power range for the PS3. If you have an issue with it, we can discuss it.


Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

Aaron what's wrong with you lately? I wasn't even addressing you or your post and you come with this. I don't have an issue with your 'estimate,' but I do have an issue with GameMaster's logic. I know you're a one man army lately when it comes to 'bringing people back to earth' on Cell, but seriously dude, at least understand the context of my post. More transistors does *not* automatically mean higher power draw when we're talking about different architectures, do you disagree? Because if you have an issue with it, we can discuss...

Anyway and the Cell will likely be at 1v - the entire implication of this article that was found was that very thing.

 

[mckmas8808]

You know your statements are very annoying without any supporting information.

Let's assume PS3 is slighty smaller, so what? Does it make you feel better?

This is a size comparison

PS2 - 301mm x 178mm x 78mm = 4,179,084

X360 - 309mm x 258mm x 83mm = 6,616,926

PS3 - 320mm x 240mm x 80mm = 6,144,000

I little bit smaller yeah.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

So, you think the PS3 GPU is going to come in UNDER 35W? There's no way.

And lets not forget most people think the PS3 GPU is based on the Nvidia G70. which draws around 110W. Doesn't mean RSX will, but it's a starting point.

RSX will proabably be a fair bit less than 110 W since it's going to be on a smaller process than the 7800. However, I don't recall anyone arguiing that the GPU was going to be low power. For that matter, not that many (if any) people really said that PS3 as a whole would draw less power. Only that CELL would not be as high power as Xenon's CPU.

By all reports the Cell processor consumes more power and puts out more heat than a high end Pentium 4 processor... and for good reason considering the clock speeds and transistor count. Ken Kutaragi also indicated that the processor consumes a great deal of power.

I'd like to see these so-called reports of yours. The example you provided was all collected as a result of hearsay. And I'd like to see where Kutaragi said CELL draws a lot of power. Last I recall, the closest thing he said was that maintaining low power consumption was a major consideration when designing the processor in the first place.

Also, IIRC, around the time of ISSCC, when IBM's schmoo plot for the SPE power consumption actually DID come out, everybody was still under the impression that 4.6 GHz would be the clock speed within PS3. It wasn't until E3 that the 3.2 Ghz number came around. At 4.6 GHz, I can totally believe 130 W and above. While IBM never disclosed anything about the PPE power density, the relative similarity to Xenon's cores means we can probably extrapolate from that as a source.

 

[Edge]

I love this forum, the very same people who are claiming CELL and RSX run hotter than Xbox 360's CPU and GPU, are the same people who claim Xbox 360 CPU and GPU are superior in performance.

If this was true, Sony engineers should be fired, but then again we are talking about the company that got the PS2 chipset to 1/6th it's original size and just recently shipped over 100 million units. The company that produces the smallest console, with the power supply built into that tiny unit!!!

I'm so worried about Sony.

aaronspink, nice speculation by the way, for my questions.

 

[jvd]

I love this forum, the very same people who are claiming CELL and RSX run hotter than Xbox 360's CPU and GPU, are the same people who claim Xbox 360 CPU and GPU are superior in performance.

If this was true, Sony engineers should be fired, but then again we are talking about the company that got the PS2 chipset to 1/6th it's original size and just recently shipped over 100 million units.

I'm so worried about Sony.

Its also the company that slashed usa shipments for launch in half from 1 million to 500 thousand even though the ps2 was in production for over half a year at that point .


So yes I am worried about sony .

 

[Carl B]

Ok, this thread is about power supplies and power requirements; let's keep it on topic because I'm sensing an off-topic tangent about to begin.

 

[PSXer]

If this was true, Sony engineers should be fired, but then again we are talking about the company that got the PS2 chipset to 1/6th it's original size and just recently shipped over 100 million units. The company that produces the smallest console, with the power supply built into that tiny unit!!!

Huh? The slim PS2 I have has an external Power Supply. Did they somehow manage to fit it internally in newer revisions?

 

[MasaC]

Found this picture of the PS3:



To me that suggests the PS3 has an internal PSU when you combine the fact that the original PS2 had an internal PSU and an off-switch and compare it to the PSTwo which has an external PSU and lacks an off-swith with the findings in this thread.

 

[mckmas8808]

Found this picture of the PS3:



To me that suggests the PS3 has an internal PSU when you combine the fact that the original PS2 had an internal PSU and an off-switch and compare it to the PSTwo which has an external PSU and lacks an off-swith with the findings in this thread.

Great, great point my friend.

 

[Bobbler]

The PS3 was stated to have an internal one in an interview a while back (around E3 time).

 

[function]

If you were going to be drawing more power than the 360 I don't see what option you'd have. The 360 already seems to be pushing what's acceptable in terms size and heat for a console power brick - there'll come a point (by my reckoning anyway) where you have to put it inside so it can be actively cooled.

Would make the package as a whole neater and easier to accommodate too, though it means even more heat being pumped out of the console.

Huh? The slim PS2 I have has an external Power Supply. Did they somehow manage to fit it internally in newer revisions?

Not on any of the ones I've seen, and judging by the unit's size I'd say in none of them.

 

[Guden Oden]

Think you can do better?

No, I don't think I could guess better than you, that's my whole point!

I'm pointing out that guessing does not a "pretty good estimate" make.

 

[Guden Oden]

If you were going to be drawing more power than the 360 I don't see what option you'd have. The 360 already seems to be pushing what's acceptable in terms size and heat for a console power brick - there'll come a point (by my reckoning anyway) where you have to put it inside so it can be actively cooled.

x360's brick IS being actively cooled - although the fan is really pushing a quite tiny amount of air. Anyway, the power brick on my particular unit - and I can't vouch for anyone else's - doesn't heat up much. maybe that is because it's sitting on a hard surface instead of a fuzzy carpet which seems to be so prevalent in many north american homes. The brick gets slightly warm to the touch, it ejects a little heat from the internal fan. Overall, not too bad.

Maybe part of the difference is we have 230V power supply in europe, nearly double the 120V in NA. Lower volts and same power = more amps = more resistance losses as heat. So the supply would theoretically run hotter at 120V, but this isn't backed up by any kind of scientific evidence or anything...

I don't think there would be any major obstacle from putting the supply internal in PS3. As x360 shows, it doesn't have to produce a huge amount of heat, and HTPC power supplies are quite small while being quite powerful. Add to this, PC supplies need to supply a host of different voltages, which complicates their design. PS3 PSU could do just one or two output voltages, and then perform further regulation on the mobo itself.

 

[function]

x360's brick IS being actively cooled

I stand corrected then! Thanks. I've wondered about the voltage difference issue in the past myself btw, but wouldn't dare put my name to any kind of prediction.