Guerrilla Games is doing what some devs don't and listen to their fans

[CassidyIzABeast]

I actually like how Guerrilla is thinking, they're asking what gamers liked and didn't like and aren't basically tweaking the next Killzone to the liking of its fans. Check it out....


Here's what the Lead Tester for Guerrilla Games asked fans of the game on their forum yesterday



Hi folks,

I have been asked by our Design Lead to get some feedback on what you felt worked well with the grenades in Killzone 1 online AND campaign.

I know that grenade killing became much too wide-spread and people would pin it as they knew they were about to die to try and get some more kills. I also think that the player got too many grenades, but I wanted to know from you guys, the real experts, what you though. So let me know what you thought of the...

Throwing mechanic. Did you like the arc of throwing. Do you find it easy to get the grenade to where you want it to land.
Damage. Too much damage? Too little? How did you feel the spread was the area that would receive damage?
Amount. Should you be spawned with grenades? If so how many? If not how many should be in a pick-up? Or should every single grenade be a single pick-up?
Anything else? Anything else you would like to mention in regard to the grenades? Go ahead.

So folks, we would appreciate it if you gave us some feedback. Think of it as a post-mortum evaluation of the grenades and please do not use this discussion as a forum for flaming. Everyones opinion counts here. (And please don't just say "Why don't you use Game 'X's mechanic?")

thanks guys.




Seb Downie - Lead Tester - Guerrilla Games

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=71015

 

[Asher]

Sometimes it's best to ignore what fans say they want. A classic example of Master of Orion 3 (a PC game). MOO2 was legendary and MOO3 was being developed by very actively asking fans what they want and providing feedback.

Look up reviews of MOO3 to see how it turned out.

 

[PC-Engine]

Asking fans about the actual mechanics just shows they don't have a clue. Don't they have game testers?

 

[Bad_Boy]

Asking fans about the actual mechanics just shows they don't have a clue.

your kidding right? community input on what should be changed to make the game better is nothing but good news. I wish EA would follow suit with BF2. They dont have to use suggestions the fans offer them, but it gives them an idea of what the fans want. Some companies just put out polls and questionaries via email, for example; playstation underground & gamers advisory panel.

It hardly means they dont have a clue. The way i see it, the devs that know what the fans want are one step ahead of the devs who dont.

 

[PC-Engine]

your kidding right? community input on what should be changed to make the game better is nothing but good news. I wish EA would follow suit with BF2. They dont have to use suggestions the fans offer them, but it gives them an idea of what the fans want. Some companies just put out polls and questionaries via email, for example; playstation underground & gamers advisory panel.

It hardly means they dont have a clue. The way i see it, the devs that know what the fans want are one step ahead of the devs who dont.

What about developers who get it right without help from fans?

 

[Ty]

Asking fans about the actual mechanics just shows they don't have a clue. Don't they have game testers?

The sad fact is that in the aggregate, the players know WAY more about the game than the developers.

Now things like data mining can go a long ways to help catch up but still, the players will know more about certain aspects of the game. This isn't to say that you will get the proper/accurate data from the forum nor that you as a developer should listen to your players for everything however.

What about developers who get it right without help from fans?

Getting it "right" is tough without much iteration simply because "right" tends to be a moving target. As players learn your game, they adapt and come up with new strategies that seems to obivate facets that were problems before.

 

[PC-Engine]

Now things like data mining can go a long ways to help catch up but still, the players will know more about certain aspects of the game. This isn't to say that you will get the proper/accurate data from the forum nor that you as a developer should listen to your players for everything however.

That's why you have inhouse game testers or even beta testers...

Getting it "right" is tough without much iteration simply because "right" tends to be a moving target. As players learn your game, they adapt and come up with new strategies that seems to obivate facets that were problems before.

Yeah but Guerilla is asking basic stuff like how many grenades and what the throwing arc should be. Shouldn't the inhouse game testers be giving answers to these kinds of simple questions from developers?

 

[Inane_Dork]

Well, you have to temper the feedback with what you know and want from the game. I assume Guerrilla is doing so. I see nothing that suggests otherwise.

And yeah, not all devs listen to their audience. But I daresay they have good reason. Who really wants to rummage through hundreds of poorly constructed, flaming attacks to find the one good suggestion (that might not be usable anyway)?

 

[Kabbage]

I love what the GG is doing with the community, fan suggestion is never a bad thing. The developers already told the community over there the suggestion may not all going to be included, or would all be possible.

I dont see how them asking if the fans liked the way they implemented the grenade mechanic in the game as a sign of the developers not knowing what they are doing.

 

[SugarCoat]

Getting it "right" is tough without much iteration simply because "right" tends to be a moving target. As players learn your game, they adapt and come up with new strategies that seems to obivate facets that were problems before.

so i guess there were no good games before company X came up with the bright idea of asking its fanbase via internet commentary then right?

I find developers that try to satisfy everyone, end up screwing the majority that they had pleased. Since those people enjoyed what they had before they dont speak up and get screwed in the process. This does nothing good for the fanbase or developer other then looks great for PR. Game developers read their forums quite often believe it or not. They dont need to make it open forum for ideas, that, as pointed out, shows that they lack imagination or are looking to kiss ass. This thread has followed the kissing ass route.

Guerrilla Games is still a sub par game developer no matter how you cut it. At least to many people. If your one of the very few people that liked some of their games, good for you. Dont forget some people liked Daikatana too.

 

[PC-Engine]

This does nothing good for the fanbase or developer other then looks great for PR.

This thread has followed the kissing ass route.

Ditto.

 

[Gholbine]

Guerilla is one of those developer who you know as a lot of potential for an awesome game. In my opinion, the original Killzone was very much limited by the hardware it was running on. Too much time was spent on the (gorgeous) engine, and not enough on the actual gameplay mechanics and storyline.

This time around, with an easier system to develope on, I get a strong feeling that the game could turn out much better than its predecessor did. I very much look forward to seeing more of Killzone PS3.

 

[TTP]

Guerilla is one of those developer who you know as a lot of potential for an awesome game. In my opinion, the original Killzone was very much limited by the hardware it was running on. Too much time was spent on the (gorgeous) engine, and not enough on the actual gameplay mechanics and storyline.

This time around, with an easier system to develope on, I get a strong feeling that the game could turn out much better than its predecessor did. I very much look forward to seeing more of Killzone PS3.

Ditto. Just imagine a 60fps Killzone with a better AI and there u got your "Halo killer".

Anyway, as for the feedback they are asking for, what's the problem? I wish more developers would do that rather than rely on in house "pay-me-and-I'll-tell-you-everything-is-allright" testers. I actually think that most of the dev community is missing a great opportunity in not usually allowing addicted gamers to play early demos of their projects and publically share their opinions and suggestions. Just be grateful to Production Studio 4 (Capcom) for caring about people feedback 'cos in Resident Evil 4 - for example - you would now be forced to pick up the knife from the inventory (rather than just tapping a button) whenever you want to use it if it was not pointed out to them how stupid it was.

[it's good to be back to B3D. Long time not posting ]

 

[fulcizombie]

Ditto. Just imagine a 60fps Killzone with a better AI and there u got your "Halo killer".

Anyway, as for the feedback they are asking for, what's the problem? I wish more developers would do that rather than rely on in house "pay-me-and-I'll-tell-you-everything-is-allright" testers. I actually think that most of the dev community is missing a great opportunity in not usually allowing addicted gamers to play early demos of their projects and publically share their opinions and suggestions. Just be grateful to Production Studio 4 (Capcom) for caring about people feedback 'cos in Resident Evil 4 - for example - you would now be forced to pick up the knife from the inventory (rather than just tapping a button) whenever you want to use it if it was not pointed out to them how stupid it was.

[it's good to be back to B3D. Long time not posting ]

Exactly,i mean all that killzone neede to be a "Halo-killer" was a better frame rate and better A.I.They had nailed everything else,i mean the online was amasing ,the stages were varied and interesting,the one enemy you fought in the entire game was....unique.It's clear that a next gen version of killzone can be the best FPS ever just like a next gen. version of blinx can be the best platformer ever or a next gen Tao Feng can be the best fighter ever.

It seems ,judging by the in-game trailer of E3,that guerilla has an amasing graphics engine for killzone 2 that crushes things like the UE3 so they are off to a great start.....right???

 

[Deepak]

Hi TTP, welcome back. :smile: Do you know if KZ2 still on for PS2?

Good to see GG seeking players feedback, it will give better idea about gamers' taste...they shouldn't rely on beta testers solely.

 

[Npl]

That's why you have inhouse game testers or even beta testers...

What makes you think game testers/beta testers are better than regular gamers? The thing that differences them is that they have to try to break things, keep track of what they did( ie. how they triggered bugs ) and dont have any regret "using cheats" to get to hard to reach places. They maybe even dont like the game they have to test. Its way different than just enjoying the game, or even try to develop strategies.
Apart from that, testers are a few dozends, players are thousands. That doesnt mean their subjective opinion is better or worse, but things most of the players agree are alot more significant than a uniform opinion of 20 people.

 

[3roxor]

That's why you have inhouse game testers or even beta testers...

I think it depends..if you use the same testers over and over again (like some devs do) you aren't getting reliable feedback. Specially if those testers are getting a paycheck everymonth. I can remember that back when Ut2003 was released there was a (great) forum where CliffyB and Mark Rein visited quit often and really listened to all the complaints and acted on it.

 

[PC-Engine]

What makes you think game testers/beta testers are better than regular gamers? The thing that differences them is that they have to try to break things, keep track of what they did( ie. how they triggered bugs ) and dont have any regret "using cheats" to get to hard to reach places. They maybe even dont like the game they have to test. Its way different than just enjoying the game, or even try to develop strategies.
Apart from that, testers are a few dozends, players are thousands. That doesnt mean their subjective opinion is better or worse, but things most of the players agree are alot more significant than a uniform opinion of 20 people.

Good point, but I didn't say game testers were better. I was simply saying they are good enough when you consider there have been plenty of great games released without input from fans. Like has already been said, input from fans is a double edged sword, the key is picking what you "think" will work and ignoring what you "think" wouldn't. At the end of the day it's still guesswork and doesn't guarantee the game will be "better" just because there was input from fans. You still need a "judge".

I think it depends..if you use the same testers over and over again (like some devs do) you aren't getting reliable feedback. Specially if those testers are getting a paycheck everymonth. I can remember that back when Ut2003 was released there was a (great) forum where CliffyB and Mark Rein visited quit often and really listened to all the complaints and acted on it.

Also a good point, but again it depends on how good your game testers are and if they like the game they're testing or not. This doesn't change the fact that fans of a game will actually be able to come up with good ideas and agree with them as a whole. In fact some fans might not like what other fans are suggesting. At the end of the day you still need a "judge" and that decision is up to the developer.

 

[groper]

Ditto. Just imagine a 60fps Killzone with a better AI and there u got your "Halo killer".

Actually , all that killzone need to be a Halo killer , is someone to invert their ratings ,

HALO..........9.6
KILLLZONE...6.9

 

[PC-Engine]

Runs for cover.