vista struggles

Rambler

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I didn't want to sidetrack the vista beta thread anymore, so i made this new one. I just found this IMO interesting article in one of the latest Windows IT Pro newsletter:

Allchin on Vista: "It's Not Going to Work"
Echoing my earlier comments about Windows Vista being a train wreck, Microsoft Group Vice President Jim Allchin walked into Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates's office in July 2004 and told him that the software project was horribly behind schedule and would never get caught up. "It's not going to work," he said, according to a report in "The Wall Street Journal." The problem was that Vista was too complicated, and Microsoft's age-old methods for developing software weren't going to be good enough.
Despite my repeated efforts at getting Microsoft to speak on record about the events of last year, when the company halted development of Windows Vista--then code-named Longhorn--so that it could start over from scratch, the software giant and its PR firm has consistently railroaded me and prevented me from sitting down with people who are knowledgeable about what happened. However, I'd been briefed informally about these events, referred to internally as "the reset."
Contrary to the "The Wall Street Journal" report, the reset was underway months earlier than July 2004. At the company's Windows Hardware Engineering Conference (WinHEC) 2004 show that April, Microsoft handed out a Longhorn build to developers that would be the last pre-reset version of the code to ship outside the company.
Microsoft executives knew at that time that the development situation had spiraled out of control, and that they would need to start over, scrapping much of the code that had already been developed.
According to "The Wall Street Journal," Gates initially resisted Allchin's plan to reset Vista, sure that the company could turn things around. That resistance set back the reset--and thus, the eventual Vista release date--by several months. "There was some angst by everybody," Gates said. "It's obviously my role to ask people, 'Hey, let's not throw things out we shouldn't throw out. Let's keep things in that we can keep in.'" It was too late for that. "The ship was just crashing to the ground," Allchin said. Ship, train, whatever.
Before Vista, Microsoft had developed new client and server versions of Windows fairly regularly, every few years. But the enormous laundry list of promised features in Vista proved costly to the company.
Originally due in 2003, Vista has slipped several times and is now expected in late 2006. Microsoft first showed off the system publicly more than 2 years ago--an eon in software time. And during that time period, Microsoft's competitors have come on strong. Google now dominates the Web. The open-source Linux system is a viable server competitor. And Apple Computer's technically excellent Mac OS X system, although not a threat to the PC desktop, remains in the game with an ever-possible sales boost from the iPod and iTunes, which dominate the consumer electronics and digital music markets, respectively.
How damaging has Vista been to Microsoft? Allchin, the man most directly responsible for Windows development at Microsoft, will retire when the product ships. The entire Microsoft corporate structure has been reorganized to meet the company's new competitive needs, which came to light only when Vista's massive delays highlighted the company's slowness and weaknesses. And customers now doubt that Microsoft is capable of developing anything grand: Some of Vista's most compelling features, such as a database-backed storage engine that's been in the works for more than a decade, have been scrapped so that the company can simply release Vista in a reasonable amount of time.
Many of the problems are related to corporate culture, and that culture won't be fixed by Microsoft's recent reorganization. Microsoft is far too big a company with far too many levels of executives to quickly act on new market trends. Vista, as a result, is fighting the OS battles of the past decade, reacting rather than being proactive and innovative. Mac OS X users, for example, can point at many of Vista's features and correctly note that they appeared first on Apple's system, sometimes years ago. For Microsoft, a company that desperately wants to be seen as an innovator, this situation is untenable.
All that said, Vista is now on track. Current beta builds of the system show an OS that's far more similar to Windows XP, with fewer new features and a much less elegant interface than originally planned. But it's a solid-looking release, and some of the upcoming consumer- oriented features, which Microsoft will reveal between now and the beta 2 release in early December, are sure to wow users. Has Microsoft gotten its groove back? Not at all, and huge changes still need to be made. But righting the ship for Vista was a good and necessary first step.

I didn't know there were these "resets" - i thought they just scrapped some feature and continued without it.
 
silence said:
so, basically its bumped up XP with DRM..... another reason NOT to install it.

My thoughts exactly. The days of people lineing up around Best Buy and CompUSA for the new windows are over. 98se was their last, really good product. NT5 was up there too, but it's still overkill for people who just wanna surf/watch/listen. The number of people that were content with 98 over ME, 2000 and XP have only dwindled because offical support has been halted (although work-arounds are available, re Doom3).

More people think that the previous, cheaper versions of windows already do what they want, and unless MS goes for forced obselence, they may find themselves in a hard spot.

The one exception, of course, is the HD-media craze.
 
i am still amazed at how many businesses here still use win98.... they simply have no need for all those "amazing" features in XP and i am sure as hell they wont go for Vista as well...

secretary needs to be able to write a memo, check mail and thats it.... k, mabe few more things, but nothing that will force her boss to buy both new OS like Vista and new comp that can run it....

i have seen people working just fine on celerons 400 .... like my mom, she is translator and has win98 setup on celeron 433 with 128 MB.... she can work in Word anytime she wants, check mail and has no need for even XP.... (not to mention hardware requirements of Vista, which will kill it more then anything else).... businesses dont like big spendings that easy, specially now that economy around the world isnt in the best shape....

why go from some 1-1.5 Ghz with 128-2456 MB memory machine to something that is needed for Vista? take middle sized company.... not only they have to pay for Vista, they have to pay for new computers, cause i really dont see Vista running on anything older then year-year and a half....
 
All great nations rise and, inevitably, fall.

I wonder if this is the start of the inexorable fall of Microsoft from it's dominant position? It wouldn't surprise me at all that sometime in the future we'll see a real client-server model for desktop machines (the fabled 'network' computer) where Google eventually dominates.
 
Diplo said:
I wonder if this is the start of the inexorable fall of Microsoft from it's dominant position? It wouldn't surprise me at all that sometime in the future we'll see a real client-server model for desktop machines (the fabled 'network' computer) where Google eventually dominates.

I doubt it. The next great OS worth buying new hardware for will probably come from somewhere other than the US. There are a lot of really talented and hard working programmers stateside, but between India and China there's well over 2 billion people, and even if only a fraction of them have a computer, and a smaller fraction know how to program, that's a lot of competition.

Heck, it's already started, at least the simple stuff.
 
Jimmers said:
I doubt it. The next great OS worth buying new hardware for will probably come from somewhere other than the US. There are a lot of really talented and hard working programmers stateside, but between India and China there's well over 2 billion people, and even if only a fraction of them have a computer, and a smaller fraction know how to program, that's a lot of competition.

Heck, it's already started, at least the simple stuff.

China already ordered all their officials to move to their "Red Flag" Linux by 2008....
and China, Japan and South Korea have working together on some sort of next gen Linux ....
 
Jimmers said:
I doubt it. The next great OS worth buying new hardware for will probably come from somewhere other than the US. There are a lot of really talented and hard working programmers stateside, but between India and China there's well over 2 billion people, and even if only a fraction of them have a computer, and a smaller fraction know how to program, that's a lot of competition.
Yeah, but in actuality what happens is that large US corporations outsource software development to India and China etc. US companies would design the software but leave the coding donkey work to the cheap overseas labour force. This is rather analogous to the way manufacturing is out-sourced now - Nike or Sony might design a product but it's actual manufacture and assembly is done in Taiwan or China. AFAIK there are no massive software giants in the developing world that could hope to rival Microsoft or Google. Not yet.
 
Diplo said:
AFAIK there are no massive software giants in the developing world that could hope to rival Microsoft or Google. Not yet.

Beijing, Tokyo and Seoul, – Aug. 26, 2005 --Today, three leading Asia Linux OS vendors Red Flag Software Co., Ltd., Japanese MIRACLE LINUX Corp., and Korean Haansoft Inc., jointly announced the general availability of new generation Linux server platform – Asianux2.0. The release of Asianux2.0 reaffirmed the commitment that Asianux will continuously bring latest open source technology and high quality service to Asia enterprise customers and partners. The powerful features of Asianux2.0 make it a perfect open platform for key enterprise applications.

as i said, China, Japan and SK are working together on major Linux for asian market....
we'll see....
 
Jimmers said:
98se was their last, really good product.
UMMMMM......no.

98 was OK for the time. Not really good, because it had that SHITTY 16-bit foundation with SHITTY memory protection features, but sort of OK.

XP is great IMO, it's almost not that annoying to install either. ;) On my old PC from '01, it autodetects every damn piece of hardware and installs drivers for it. Of course, I've since stolen the USB/Firewire card, the modem and all the USB stuff from it, but back when I used that box, it found EVERYTHING except for the soundblaster live card, and there might actually be a driver for that on windows update, I'm not sure actually. Of course, I didn't want to use the computer with the windows GF3 driver, but it worked. Minimum of hassle. I got all kinds of I/O, graphics... Everything. Great stuff! And the OS itself is a dream to use IMO as long as one has enough RAM. Of course there's stuff to get irritated over, but there's the same with everything. It really works quite well IMO.

And don't bring up viruses n shit either please. If one is the least bit sensible, has hardware firewall and grabs the patches when they're released, nothing happens. I've hooked up 24:7 since december 2000, NEVER had any spyware or shit in my box. First couple years I didn't even have a firewall. :p
 
Well, to each his own I suppose. The autodetect in XP was alright, but I pretty much ended up discarding the windows drivers for real drivers.

I agree with the viruses/spyware thing. I never had a problem either. However, I routinely would reformat/reinstall XP every 6 months or so, just like any other windows. Despite my vigilence, boot times would get longer, the OS would stall inexplicably and some programs would often go into the "not-responding" mode. None of this was ever related to viruses or spyware (according to adaware and norton).

Not to say that it didn't happen with 98se, but it sure didn't get any better between then.
 
I've been a long time Unix user since the 80s, but I always disliked the Unix desktop. Linux is no exception. However, I've been using OS X for the last few months on a notebook. OS X is simply the Unix Desktop the way it was meant to be. But more than that, it kills Windows XP and Vista (I've installed the beta)

My reaction to Vista? Is this all they've got to show after 6 years?

OS X rocks, and stuff just "works" most of the time. I was amazed how, out of the box, OS X had better support for bluetooth and syncing with my mobile phone than XP/Vista. It even goes so far as to download Symbian apps to phones which don't have SyncML to provide support.

And Spotlight already does most of what WinFS was supposed to bring, but apparently, won't.

I think once OS X desktops on x86 start shipping, I might seriously switch my desktop, and keep XP around only for a few games that won't run under an x86 virtual machine.
 
I'd switch to OSX in a heartbeat if I could run my games. Occassionally I try out Linux (Ubuntu is pretty good), but the inability to play my games pretty much always leads to me switching back to Windows. It would be the same thing with OSX. For practical, non gaming purposes, OSX is much better. Microsoft is going to have a really hard time convincing people to switch over to Vista. I think Vista will be a pretty good improvement over XP, just from the new driver model alone, but most people don't really care, as long as they can check their email, type up a resume and look around on the web.

I think Vista could be very successful if it was really insanely easy to use, like OSX. That's pretty much what draws people to Mac. But I think Vista will be another OS that non computer literate people like my mother will hate. Even though I think XP is extremely easy to use, for people like my mom, it's not.
 
DemoCoder said:
I think once OS X desktops on x86 start shipping, I might seriously switch my desktop, and keep XP around only for a few games that won't run under an x86 virtual machine.

Me too, and I think games will port much easier and quicker then.
 
I don't really see how games will port any easier. Really, you still have to test it on a rather different platform and unless DX is making it to the Mac (a possibility?) it doesn't make much difference.

AFAIK, very few games use much in the way of assembly and when it comes to cross platform that's largely compiler and OS libraries, seeing as that's the case, the CPU has little to nothing to do with this.

Same CPU basically means nothing in this regard, it's all about the libraries, and I don't see those drawing all that much closer.
 
Well did anyone else read that 3 page article of how gates was hissy and just wanted vista out and the manager told him they'd have to start from scrach because Windows is at its limit of bolted-on-ness?(ie kaput) And that WinFS would have to wait. The whole production/design level of MS has been shaken up. Think it all started with MS splitting into 3 big parts.

I think it's gonna turn out great. Trolling about, "oh its M$'s new shitty OS, I wonder how shitty it will be, I can't wait to use it for a day and post on forums how shitty it is". That's just silly. Been going on since 98, and people still think its cool to do it. They had reason 8 years ago, but no longer. I use linux, sure it cant be topped as far as a stable server option(in many respects/applications), but for typical home use, XP and Vista simply are what's needed.

In any case, I have 0 problems from XP(since 2001, any problems were user error), and thats using it several hours a day. I dont see what people complain about. XP is great. 98 is absolute trash now.

This reminds me of how people whine about Steam from Valve, when its trying to get off the ground people want to tear it apart. And when it becomes a stable platform people still without real reason redicule it just because of the past.
 
whats trolling in pointing how much they are late, how many features theyhad to scrap abd so on? maybe you didnt have problems with XP, good for you, i personally didnt have many either, but i still think its crap... security is crap and its built on pre-historic foundations....

and i dont think Vista will be any different cause M$ didnt change their corporate culture, which is much more important then code itself....

so, if i say i dont think its gonna turn out ok, you will come back with your trolling theory?
personally, i think it will be nice looking, many people will go "WooooW", but under the hood it will have all the same old problems M$ is having now.....
fact that you didnt have problems with XP doesnt change FACT that there were so many viruses and all other security related problems with XP that noone prolly even know their number....

not to mention patches that opened more holes then they patched and things like that....



</trolling> satisfied?
 
The user base in large corporations with very many custom build solutions isn't going to change. For home use, the games are the problem.

If China and others are serious about using Linux (which they seem to be), it will create a massive market for games. And if Linux takes off for consoles like PS3, it might encourage more companies to make a Linux version of their games as well. Which would remove the only reason for private people to buy/use Windows.



The main reason it takes so long to get Vista up and running was the completely new model with DRM to make sure everyone has to pay. If they succeed in doing that, it will drive very many people to Linux as well, especially the ones who don't play games. At the moment, it's still easier and cheaper to use an illegal copy of Windows for most people. If you buy a cheap computer, the OEM version of Windows is about a quarter of the total cost. That's why most cheap computers around here come without an OS, except from the large brands.
 
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