New sound Card

[BlueTsunami]

Do you mean like if you plug a microphone in?

Anyway you should still be getting 5.1 channel sound from all sources, however if the source is stereo than unless you change the driver to clone the front channel you end up with a 5.1 channel that tells it "No sound on the back speakers" hopefully you can enable crossover so LF sound gets put to your SUB.

Gah, I think I was confused when I made that comment. Basically games that don't support DDL out can still be sent to a reciever but will be restricted to 2 channels. The Onkyo may be able to simulate Surround Sound and -fill in the gaps- and give me a sort of surround sound. Probably half-baked though.

I read more about what EAX actually does and it IS more of a 3D spatial technique, where Dolby simulates sound from the left, right, up and down. EAX makes it feel like the sound is coming from YOU. Which rocks. Dolby Surround Sound doesn't do this, so basically it works in conjunction with EAX.

So EAX is (obviously) very important to PC games but like what has already been stated, Creative has this technology in their pocket. I was hoping Dolby could be some kind of savior but nope, just have to deal with Creative being the sol sound card provider with the newest version of this technology.

 

[Bolloxoid]

Does Dolby threat Creatives EAX in any way? Or are they two completley different things?

They are two completely different things. EAX is a 3D sound API/engine, Dolby Digital is an audio compression codec.

Sure game manufacturers like to plaster DD stickers all over their boxes, but if you read the fine print you'll notice that a DD encoding capable sound card is required. Hence, it's got nothing to do with the game.

 

[Sxotty]

Gah, I think I was confused when I made that comment. Basically games that don't support DDL out can still be sent to a reciever but will be restricted to 2 channels.

Incorrect. Games that have any form of surround at all WILL be encoded in DDL that is the whole point. You will get surround with one cable.

edit:
The drawback btw is that theoretically there might be a small lag, and thus sync issues are possible. I never noticed on my nforce2 though.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Incorrect. Games that have any form of surround at all WILL be encoded in DDL that is the whole point. You will get surround with one cable.

edit:
The drawback btw is that theoretically there might be a small lag, and thus sync issues are possible. I never noticed on my nforce2 though.

About the encoding to DDL, i've heard that Quake 3 goes to 2 Ch for some reason. Not to sure why....might be something else.

About the possible sync issues, I've heard of problems with that but it was more of a setting problem. I just can't wait to get down on BF2 with all this setup and I wonder how DOOM III will sound....

 

[Sxotty]

Quake 3 doesn't do surround except on Aureal cards, as you may or may not know Aureal was sued and the aquired by creative when they could not afford the lawyers. Thus there are really no cards that will work to make 3d sound in quake 3. The sound that it makes is stereo, so encoding a 2 channel signal will only give 2 channels...

 

[Accord1999]

I wonder how DOOM III will sound....

Quite lousy since the Doom3 software sound engine is primitive.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Quite lousy since the Doom3 software sound engine is primitive.

There has to be some type of immersion though. To hear the creep stuff around you....or is it really that bad?

 

[Sxotty]

It mainly depends on whether people like the game

The sound system is simple, yes, but I thought it did a very good job unless it glitched out, in which case there was some console command to reset it... but I forget what it was.

 

[Accord1999]

There has to be some type of immersion though. To hear the creep stuff around you....or is it really that bad?

The positioning isn't that good and doesn't do any really audio effects that are found are later versions of EAX. It only also worked with 5.1 setup, it coulnd't properly work with any other configuration or headphones. They also use poor quality samples, mostly 32kbps/22050 Ogg Vorbis files.

 

[Zaphod]

Surround sound != 3D sound. I also think a later patch removed the A3D mode from Q3.

A3D was primarily designed to be best experienced with headphones, as it was based on binaural sound processing. Any A3D.dll shipping with modern soundcards is really only a DS3D wrapper. As A3D was both a 3D sound API and a 3D sound engine; the game, say Quake 3, would ask for the sound to be positioned, for example behind, to the left and above the listener via the A3D API. The A3D algorithms would then proceed to virtualize that sound placement in 3D space so it would appear as if that's where the sound came from.

DS3D, however is not a surround system, nor is it a 3D sound engine. It's just the API, and it's entirely up to the drivers if, and what 3D sound processing that's to be done. On a 4 speaker (or more) setup the easy way to interpret the above scenario would be to simply play it through the left rear and be done with it.

I can’t say that I hate Creative, and the way they’re doing it makes sense for them business vise I guess. While I won’t argue against the fact that a fully stocked Creative setup do sound good their products just doesn’t excite me. I also don’t by the EAX marketing pushing EAX as ‘realistic sound’. With lots of speakers, then fun? Sure. Realistic? Not so much. I don’t thinks anyone will argue with a straight face that thay’ve done much to advance the field of 3D sound over the last 5 years.

Then there’s value. You can (at least here) get decent Hi-Fi speakers at ridiculously low cost. Compared to what the same money will buy in PC speakers there’s no contest. Some ‘enthusiasts’ may scorn at many of the brands that can give an amazing price/performance ratio, but when it comes to audio there’s so much snake oil and black magic going around that personally se no reason to spend more than necessary. When properly set up most people won’t be able to tell the difference between a €350 5.0 surround system and something costing more than 5 times as much.

 

[BlueTsunami]

So Zaphod, what do you think of the Turtle Beach Montego DDL? I'm semi sorta second guessing after reading all this EAX stuff. How would that card compare to a Audigy Z2?

I can't really find any information on the Montego DDL. Some personal reviews but no real benchmarks or something of that nature.

 

[Zaphod]

The positioning isn't that good and doesn't do any really audio effects that are found are later versions of EAX. It only also worked with 5.1 setup, it coulnd't properly work with any other configuration or headphones.

Doom 3 doesn't really do any positioning at all, apart from the mode with 5 discrete channels. Sound positioning to me is playing a sound that’s *positioned* in 3D space. Doom 3 couldn’t really do that.

BTW: Didn't Creative sue themselves into adding EAX Advanced HD for future Doom 3 engine titles?

 

[Accord1999]

BTW: Didn't Creative sue themselves into adding EAX Advanced HD for future Doom 3 engine titles?

Yeah, personally I found the situation to be a win-win situation for iD. They get to use their technique without legal issues and also get somebody else to improve their engine for them, adding value to it at no cost to themselves.

 

[Zaphod]

So Zaphod, what do you think of the Turtle Beach Montego DDL? I'm semi sorta second guessing after reading all this EAX stuff. How would that card compare to a Audigy Z2?

Haven't tried it. (Edit: But I'd guess that the reviews of HDA Digital X-Mystique 7.1 should be reasonably comparable to the Montego. I don't think TB would cheap out too much on components and apparently the Montego use a slightly newer version of the chip.)

I'll restate, though, that, if purely for PC gaming, I think that an Audigy 2 (or above) with a good set of PC speakers is the best way to go today.

For me personally I don't find that the Crative option improve my gaming experience enough to forgo the othe benefits that you yourself listed for buying the Montego. That and the fact that I'd find the, for example, Creative X-Fi + Logitech 5500 combo less value than my multifunctional Denon + Gale setup for the same money.

It's a tradeoff. You decide what's most important to you and spend your money with that in mind.

 

[Bolloxoid]

So Zaphod, what do you think of the Turtle Beach Montego DDL? I'm semi sorta second guessing after reading all this EAX stuff. How would that card compare to a Audigy Z2?

It's got a weakish C-Media chip on board which does most of the audio processing on the host processor, meaning it will give worse performance in games than the Audigy. It's got good Sensaura positioning algorithms, but their EAX implementation isn't really on par with Creative and won't be improved since Sensaura has been neutered. And the DD compression will degrade the sound quality somewhat, compared to Audigy's analog outputs.

 

[Sxotty]

EAX sucks anyway it is just reverb half the time.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Yeah, I was wondering if EAX 3.0 and 4.0 are really a step up from 2.0 (which the Montego can do). I may end up buying an Audigy Z2 in the future, but for now, I would rather have a dedicated soundcard then none at all. Also the system i'm building, i'm sure it will sound good even without the newest EAX support.

EDIT:I love NewEgg. The card just got delivered to my workplace, the mail room guy should be coming to my desk around lunch to deliver the card to me. I love going out to lunch and seeing my package at my desk when I come back. Sorta like christmas.

~_~,

 

[BlueTsunami]

I just got the card, its small and its pretty. I like the black look with the Gold front. I didn't know, but apperently it comes with the full version of Audio Surgeon (Not even sure what its for ). Also feels sturdy to, the covers for the Optical interfaces are solid. Feels like a quality made card (box is HUGE compared to the card itself). Can't wait to get this baby hooked up!

 

[BlueTsunami]

Turtle Beach Montego 7.1 Dolby Digital Live

I installed the card, no issues with the Installation whatsoever. I tried the Surround Sound test (With my Sony Headphones), it was real cool. Since the headphones were not made for that though, you can tell where the sound breaks when moving positions. It rocked nonetheless. I then tried it with my speakers and it was nice but I only have 2 channel speakers (with the amp). So nothing spectacular with the Surround Sound features (until I get my Onkyo and Speakers ).

So, I set up the Control Panel with the "Game" preset and started playing some Battlefield 2. I went into the Audio setup and set my Audio level to "High" and activated EAX. I started playing "Strike at Karkand" (its a map in BF2) and noticed a much crisper and detailed sound. The gun shots where more defined and powerful, the tanks can be heard (they sound more ominus and dangerous now ) and I can hear vehicles from far away coming closer or fading away. Everything, is just LOUDER and thats NOT a bad thing. Man....I never knew that a sound card can raise the immersion (and quality of the game) like this.

I haven't noticed any degradation in gameplay at all (probably because i'm not using Surround Sound). I've noticed that certain sound ques (like shooting a rocket, a tank fireing a shell or an artillery strike) aren't as badly hitting me (by stuttering and stuff) like it did before.

Like I stated though, I have crappy 2ch speakers on my system but even then, i'm noticing a great sound difference. My next paycheck (next week) is going to the Onkyo reciever the pay week after that is going to my speakers. I'm happy what i'm hearing now, but I can't wait to be hearing this with more than 2 channels.

 

[Vadi]

Anyone heard the M-AUDIO Delta 410? I want to buy it.