New sound Card

[BlueTsunami]

Home Theater Recievers

So i've been researching different Audio Recievers and came down do this one.

Onkyo TX-SR503 Home Theater Receiver

Specs for the Onkyo TX-SR503

It seems like a very decent reciever for the price I can get it for ($259.99 at Amazon.com). What I like most about it, is that it comes with 4 Digital connections. 1x Digital Coax and 3 Fiber Optic inputs .

I'm also wondering if its important to have DSP on the reciever for the Computers sound card. All newer recievers probably come with DSP (the one i'm looking at has 32-bit DSP) so i'm wondering how that would benefit. Its probably nothing I should worry about, I just noticed that the Turtle Beach card had DSP as a feature. I'm guessing the DSP itself is what allows Digital Signals to be outputted from the card itself.

All in all i'll probably be getting this reciever. Its gotten nice reviews for the price point and connections. I'm particularly happy with the ammount of Digital Connections it has. I can't wait to get this all set up and start hearing BF2 in all its glory . Then hear some PGR3 on my new setup. This is gonna be fun.

 

[stevem]

The Onkyo are good units. Prior to purchasing, check out some HT receiver reviews. Some of the better products come from Yamaha, Marantz, & Pioneer. If price is key, give the Pioneer VSX-D814 serious consideration.

 

[BlueTsunami]

So I placed my order for the Turtle Beach Montego, I should be getting it this Tuesday or Wednesday. I was reading more and more on it and it seems like a great purchase. It supports EAX 1 and 2, A3D, I3DL2 and DirectSound 3D, so alot of the PC APIs are umbrella'd with this card. I'm still trying to figure out if it supports 7.1 Surround Sound DIGITAL or if thats just supported through ANALOG. It seems as though DIGITAL does 5.1 Surround Sound and ANALOG does the 7.1 Channels. Either way I would be fine with 5.1 Channels even though I'm going to be getting a reciever that will atleast has 6.1 Channels.

The Onkyo are good units. Prior to purchasing, check out some HT receiver reviews. Some of the better products come from Yamaha, Marantz, & Pioneer. If price is key, give the Pioneer VSX-D814 serious consideration.

I took a look at that unit and it looks very good (thanks for the suggestion by the way!). It seems to have the same amount of connections but has a little more oomph. Showing me that, i'll be researching between that Pioneer or the Onkyo. Both of them have 3 Optical Inputs (which is something I want since the TB Montego uses Optical out for the DDL to the Reciever). With 3 Optical outs I can have my PC, Xbox 360 and another device connected to the reciever (that uses a pure DIGITAL connection). They both have 1x Coax which will also come in handy. The only main difference was that the Pioneer is 6.1 Channels and the Onkyo can output to 7.1.

Now that i've almost locked down my choice of reciever, i'm looking at speaker sets. I found a nice set of Sony speakers that would allow me to set them up with 5.1 Surround Sound out the box. It also comes with a sub. I'm still looking around for competent speakers, the general view is that its best to buy speakers individualy but i'm on a kinda tight budget so that might not be the best course of action. I'm not really looking for BOOMING! sound, but something to get the feel of good Surround Sound.

So I basically almost have everything planned out and should have my full setup by (the max) mid November. I could have bought a 7800GTX with the amount i'm spending now but for now I want a good Audio setup since i'm contempt with my 6600GT. Although the 6600GT is making feel jealous of people who can playing BF2 at max setting . I love that buying these items has informed me on general Audio terms and knowledge. I feel much more informed now (about audio stuff). So i'll be getting a good Audio setup and some knowledge to boot

 

[pakotlar]

I dont understand peoples' aversion to analong output to speakers. At the distances that the 3 RCA to min cables will be running (6 inches to 2 feet) you should not have any noticeable distortion. There will be more noise, true, but only at extremely high volumes. The analog out has PLENTY of bandwith for full 24bit 5.1 DVD-Audio tracks or DD EX, DTS, etc. In fact, one of the main inputs for DVD-Audio capable DVD players are multichanel analong inputs. I have my onkyo receiver hooked up to my Audigy 2Zs via RCA inputs.

My setup is this: Onkyo TX-DS575X, BassCube 10, 2 Model Six Bookshelf speakers, 2 Yamaha NS-50T *bookshelf*(theyre fucking huge, about 1.5 feet deep, 2.5 feet tall) rears, Klipsch 2.1 Satallites as center (being upgraded pronto). This is called MultiChannel on the Onkyo, and basically you are forgoing the decoding abilities of the receiver for the decoding abilities of the soundcard. This is the only serious drawback, as my Onkyo has a better DD/DTS decoder than the Audigy 2zs...most likely. For Music, the BassCube 10 + Model Six's sound absolutely fantastic. They give full, rich sound, great high's and mids, and extremely deep, punchy bass (not over-accentuated). For the price (Model Six + Sub + Onkyo = about 700 when I bought it a few years back) the setup cannot be beat. This is a layover from my HT system downstairs, which we are upgrading with a mid-range Marantz receiver and Axiom-80ti towers.

Games work perfectly well in both 4.1 and 5.1 configurations. I actually prefer 4.1 for the most part, as the Klipsch 2.1's dont integrate well at all with the system. They tend to sound way-overbright, and lack the reach of my Model Six's. The rear's offer a great deal of range, and provide a very full sound. They are absolutely incredible rears. They have a very wide soundstage which is great for ambient effects. They are pretty balanced, but not as detailed as the Model Six's, which is why they are used as rears. I would recommend good bookshelf speakers for rears over sattelites any day.

Movies sound, in one word, fantastic. 5.1 DD and DTS are incredible. Deep, punchy bass, accurate mids and highs. The Klipsch's integrate fairly well in this case. Even DTS 5.1 uses fairly low bitrate per channel, afaik this is why DTS and DD 5.1 are not prolific music formats. What DD and DTS excel in is ambient effects, vocal clarity (center channel), deep base (discrete bass channel), and channel seperation. The Klipsch's are detailed enough for voices, and though they dont have the reach for main effects, they dont stick out too much , and the immersion factor remains intact. The Audigy 2zs handles DD 5.1 and DTS wonderfully, with clear, accurate, channel seperation, no synch issues.

Before you discard the idea of hooking up your receiver to the Audigy via anything other than spdif, try the analog output. The cables will cost you 21 dollars total at Radio Shack (7 dollars for each cable, Front, Rear, Center), and if the setup doesnt work, you havent lost much.

 

[Vadi]

edit:

I overlooked the last page.

Coaxial should be better than optical for normal distances because of less jitter.

I can hear the difference between analogue and digital on my "cheap" setup and its just a matter of taste if you have the choice (often the DAC of the CD player is better than that of the receiver/amp - then again the DAC of the Audigy may suck ).

Btw. the Audigys are crap IMHO (don't know about version 5) because you HAVE to turn on bass redirection on your speakers/hi-fi. Also my 16 Euro Terratec Aureon 5.1 Fun does have optical in and outs INCLUDED.

 

[Sxotty]

The audigy probably has optical in and outs as well, but that doesn't get you surround.

I have an onkyo unit as well, and use analog now, but I liked my optical out on the nforce2 better.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The audigy probably has optical in and outs as well, but that doesn't get you surround.

I have an onkyo unit as well, and use analog now, but I liked my optical out on the nforce2 better.

I find that move SO shady from Creative. It seems easy enough to allow you to use a reciever for your sound card to get Digital Surround Sound (I understand the stakes they have in the PC Speaker business they have going). I personally don't want to buy a speaker set JUST for my PC. If i'm able to pass the sound to a general reciever, then it will have much more uses for me, in that not only will my PC use the reciever but other devices to (Game consoles, DVD Player, TV etc etc).

I also bought a 6' Optical cable for my Xbox (My father has a Sony reciever with his 60" HDTV so i'll be setting that up that reciever with the Xbox). I got it off Amazon.com for around $10. I bring that up simply because with 6' of cable, I'll be able to have my Computer and Reciever pretty much almost anywhere (apart from eachother) in my room (almost completley apart, my room is much bigger than that though but allows room none the less).

Heh, when I first started looking at sound cards, the reason for getting one was because I wanted a something separate then the Mobo to mess with Audio. Thus smoothing out gameplay in some fashion. Now i'm trying to set up a Home Theater in my room. I get carried away sometimes.

EDIT: I was looking more and more into the Onkyo SR503 and I started to realize that the Reciever has 3 Component Inputs (1 Out). I read into it some more and appearently it has something called HDTV Stepping, which allows me to connect 3 HD devices to the Onkyo reciever and be able to choose between from the three, straight from the Onkyo A/V Reciever. That has two benefits.

• 1.) It adds 3 more Component ports to my TV. 3 more than the two I had already had.
  
  2.) It also allows me to turn on the Onkyo reciever, choose which HD device I want to use and at the same time my Onkyo reciever will be ready to act as my reciever for the Audio of that device. Kinda makes things simpler.

I like that alot.

 

[BlueTsunami]

7.1? What...whats that..I think I heard a pin drop....

Ok. Now for the speakers. I've been looking for a single package speaker set. In the future, when I get a better paying job, i'll start to build the setup with much better speakers (individually of course). For the time being, my current mindset is to get a package that can get me into surround sound as soon as possible (6.1 or 7.1). Que Sony...

Sony SA-VE367T 7.1-Channel Surround Speaker System

Probably not the best sounding speakers but to be able to jump to 7.1-Channels (in one package) with sattelite speakers is real cool. I just want to outright state that i'm not the insane Audio type, and I'm probably never going to blast these speakers till my ears bleed. Comes with all the surrounding speakers, a Center Channel and a Sub. I have to admit though...the center channel speaker is looking a little weak. Its good that I can just buy a separate better one in the future though.

This may be the speaker package I pick up after I get the reciever. Order some wiring and I should be all set. Its all coming together now (in my mind). I just hope I don't get defective shit (shakes his fist at Sony). Suffice it to say, i'm reluctant to go with Sony in the first place (unless its a game console) but I guess I'll take my chances. I'm still going to look around, but this package has stricken me the most as a good deal for what your getting.

Hmmm...the users on Amazon have been giving the speakers good reviews but one user stated that the sub gives off a "white" noise. That it can only be heard if up close and seems to go away when sound is fed to the speakers. Not to much of a big deal, seems to be good speakers anways (for the price of course).

 

[Vadi]

Try them before you buy if possible.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Try them before you buy if possible.

I should visit my local Circuit City and check out the various speakers there, then go online and buy them cheaper .

I was wondering, would mixing and matching speakers even work? Basically buy that Sony package of speakers, then in the long run, upgrade certain speakers one by one. For example, get the Sony 7.1 speaker set, then down the line, upgrade the Center Channel then the Sub, next would be the front two then the Surrounding speakers. If that could be done then thats what i'll probably do. The only issue is finding various speakers that match (aesthetically )

I've been looking up general terms for Audio (mainly) and thought it would be cool to post a couple here (for those that are interested).

• Dolby Digital: Is a five-channel system consisting of left, center, right and left rear, right rear channels. All processing is done in the digital domain . Unlike Dolby Prologic in which the rear effects channels are frequency limited to approx. 100-700Hz, Dolby Digital rear channels are specified to contain the full 20-20Khz frequency content. The AC3 standard also has a separate subwoofer channel for the lowest frequencies.

• Dolby Prologic: Is a four-channel system consisting of left, center, right and rear channel, (the single rear channel is usually played through two speakers).

• DSP: Digital Signal Processing. DSP can be used to create equalization, compression, etc. of a digital signal.

• DTS: Digital Theater System. A multi-channel encoding/decoding system. Used in some movie theaters. Also now included in some home-theater processors. A competitor to Dolby Digital.

• Dynamic range: The range between the loudest and the softest sounds that are in a piece of music, or that can be reproduced by a piece of audio equipment without distortion (a ratio expressed in decibels). In speech, the range rarely exceeds 40 dB; in music, is greatest in orchestral works, where the range may be as much as 75 dB.

• Masking: The amount (or the process) by which the threshold of audibility for one sound is raised by the presence of another (masking) sound.

• Signal-to-noise (SN) ratio: The range or distance between the noise floor (the noise level of the equipment itself) and the music signal.

• Subwoofer: A speaker designed exclusively for low-frequency reproduction. A true subwoofer should be able to at least reach into the bottom octave (20-40Hz). There are many "subwoofers" on the market that would be more accurately termed "woofers".

• Threshold of feeling (pain): The sound pressure level that makes the ears tickle, located about 120 dB above the threshold of hearing.

• Total harmonic distortion (THD): Refers to a device adding harmonics that were not in the original signal. For example: a device that is fed a 20Hz sine wave that is also putting out 40Hz, 80Hz, etc. Not usually a factor in most modern electronics, but still a significant design problem in loudspeakers.

Sound Quality Glossary Terms

 

[Accord1999]

edit:
I can hear the difference between analogue and digital on my "cheap" setup and its just a matter of taste if you have the choice (often the DAC of the CD player is better than that of the receiver/amp - then again the DAC of the Audigy may suck ).

The DACs on the A2 and Xi-Fi are as good as those on most HT receivers.

I find that move SO shady from Creative. It seems easy enough to allow you to use a reciever for your sound card to get Digital Surround Sound (I understand the stakes they have in the PC Speaker business they have going). I personally don't want to buy a speaker set JUST for my PC. If i'm able to pass the sound to a general reciever, then it will have much more uses for me, in that not only will my PC use the reciever but other devices to (Game consoles, DVD Player, TV etc etc).

What's so shady? Most people don't connect their PCs to HT systems to play games, and using the analog connections are at least as good in quality as compared to compressing them into DD. And their digital output has no problem outputting pre-encoded DD/DTS media if you want. The newer Creative soundcards also support bit-perfect SPDIF output, which offers better quality for music than any DDL card if you want to use an external DAC as the DDL cards all resample.

 

[BlueTsunami]

What's so shady? Most people don't connect their PCs to HT systems to play games, and using the analog connections are at least as good in quality as compared to compressing them into DD. And their digital output has no problem outputting pre-encoded DD/DTS media if you want. The newer Creative soundcards also support bit-perfect SPDIF output, which offers better quality for music than any DDL card if you want to use an external DAC as the DDL cards all resample.

It seems simple enough to pass the DDL to a separete reciever but my general understanding is that (with Creative cards) you can only pass the digital signal with DVDs or Music...not games. If thats not true, then its a misinterpratation on my part but if it is true then I consider it shady simply because a $80 Turtle Beach card seems to do it fine.

Also, analog seems fine and good but the general ebb and flow is progressing towards digital audio. Finally the X-Fi is what like $150+? I was reluctant to spend that much on a video card at one point, let along a sound card. I mean, one of the recievers i'm looking at is almost near that price point.

The newer Creative soundcards also support bit-perfect SPDIF output, which offers better quality for music than any DDL card if you want to use an external DAC as the DDL cards all resample.

So your saying a sound card sending its digital connection to a $250+ reciever would not sound as good as a creative card on PC Speakers? Maybe its true, but that sounds bad on Onkyo, Panasonic and other various A/V Reciever Manufacturers.

 

[Accord1999]

It seems simple enough to pass the DDL to a separete reciever but my general understanding is that (with Creative cards) you can only pass the digital signal with DVDs or Music...not games. If thats not true, then its a misinterpratation on my part but if it is true then I consider it shady simply because a $80 Turtle Beach card seems to do it fine.

No, that's correct. Creative soundcards won't output surround game audio in a 5.1 digital form that will work with most HT receivers.

Also, analog seems fine and good but the general ebb and flow is progressing towards digital audio. Finally the X-Fi is what like $150+? I was reluctant to spend that much on a video card at one point, let along a sound card. I mean, one of the recievers i'm looking at is almost near that price point.

DVD-Audio and SACD on most systems only work with analog connections. Just because it's digital audio doesn't mean it's better. Your cell phone is "digital audio" too. And ultimately the audio gets converted to analog at some point.

So your saying a sound card sending its digital connection to a $250+ reciever would not sound as good as a creative card on PC Speakers? Maybe its true, but that sounds bad on Onkyo, Panasonic and other various A/V Reciever Manufacturers.

No, I'm saying for high quality audio, like CD audio a Xi-Fi (or A4 Pro, A2 7.1 Value) offers a better digital output than a DDL card because they can be configured to output bit perfect digital, whereby the audio remains at its original form. DDL cards will resample.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Ultimatley though, the #1 reason I like the digital out is because of its simplicity. All I need is 1 Optical cable (6' for $11 at Amazon) and connect the PC to the reciever. No other wires, no other hassles with connecting the PC to the reciever. As far as the speakers and reciever go, it will work for my Computer, DVD Player, Game Console and TV. I just find that fact that i'm using my A/V Reciever as a sort of HUB for all my A/V needs makes everything more effecient.

I'm not sure about how Digital or Analog sounds (I've heard that Analog has more of a Warmth to it). That being said, I'm more likley to watch movies and play games on the system, instead of listening to music (Music I would think would benefit from a warmer sound). Also, the speakers I can get for an A/V Reciever should blow away any straight PC speakers (IMO) (especially some Hardon Kardon's) .

 

[Accord1999]

Ultimatley though, the #1 reason I like the digital out is because of its simplicity. All I need is 1 Optical cable (6' for $11 at Amazon) and connect the PC to the reciever. No other wires, no other hassles with connecting the PC to the reciever. As far as the speakers and reciever go, it will work for my Computer, DVD Player, Game Console and TV. I just find that fact that i'm using my A/V Reciever as a sort of HUB for all my A/V needs makes everything more effecient..

And if you use an analog connection to a receiver, it's only 2 additional wires, combined cost probably less than the optical at any local Radio Shack. And what's your point about the receiver? That's the purpose of a receiver.

I'm not sure about how Digital or Analog sounds (I've heard that Analog has more of a Warmth to it). That being said, I'm more likley to watch movies and play games on the system, instead of listening to music (Music I would think would benefit from a warmer sound). Also, the speakers I can get for an A/V Reciever should blow away any straight PC speakers (IMO) (especially some Hardon Kardon's) .

They would (though not HK speakers). There's nothing to stop you from connecting to a Xi-Fi card either. It'll just sound the same in movies and better in games than a DDL card.

 

[BlueTsunami]

And what's your point about the receiver? That's the purpose of a receiver.

My point about the reciever is that I like having speakers just for my reciever instead of having speaker (when I say speakers, I mean a full 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 channel setup, I would of course always have the 2ch speaker setup for my PC) for my PC and Reciever. Although, I can see that if you have your PC completley in another room, away from a reciever, how PC speakers would be the only choice.

They would (though not HK speakers). There's nothing to stop you from connecting to a Xi-Fi card either. It'll just sound the same in movies and better in games than a DDL card.

Thing is, i'm not doubting the Xi-Fi's power with sound but you have to admit for a $80 Soundcard, being able to get 7.1 DDL and support all the newer sound API's (for PC games) is pretty good. I would probably get the Xi-Fi if I wanted to throw down that much on a sound card but not at this time. Also, though Digital isn't perfect, i'd rather have a setup that can produce Digital Audio no matter what instead of being throttled in some way. Thats how I feel though.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Gah, I hate you Creative. I was reading more and more on the state of general sound cards and apperently since EAX is proprietary to Creative, their the only ones that support EAX 3.0 and 4.0 (Unless the apposing company throws down some good money for the newest EAX technology). Turtle Beach does not support EAX 3.0 or 4.0 (Their reasoning is because its proprietary). I think it really sucks and i'm never supporting a Creative card because of this. My Montego DDL supports up to EAX 2.0 and I guess thats all i'll get.

Fortunatley games like Battlfield 2 and Doom III support Dolby Digital (I'm not sure what others but appearently many newer PC games support it), so thats the saving grace of this card. It also has the capability of taking analog signals and turning then into simulated digital or something (that still won't split the channels up so i'll be getting 2 channel sound). Fortunatley the Onkyo reciever i'm getting splits up as many channels as I want, so that could help out.

I can see why people dislike Creative, I've also heard about hardships with drivers (never had to use them, so I don't know myself). I hope me buying this Turtle Beach Montego DDL helps (if only a little) to get them closer and closer to the PC gameing sector. Can't wait to get it and hook it up.

 

[Bolloxoid]

Fortunatley games like Battlfield 2 and Doom III support Dolby Digital (I'm not sure what others but appearently many newer PC games support it),

No game "supports" Dolby Digital. It has got nothing to do with games or game engines.

 

[BlueTsunami]

No game "supports" Dolby Digital. It has got nothing to do with games or game engines.

Its got nothing to do with EAX or APIs like that but from what I've read, there ARE games with Dolby Digital (PC games), it isn't just for movies. Its basically gives you surround sound but EAX is what really gives you the immersive (3D Space) sound. But yeah, Battlefield 2 supports Dolby Digital and all the other Dolby terms.

Also, nothing to do with games? Most Xbox games are encoded with Dolby Digital 5.1. I don't get what you mean?

EDIT: Whats the difference between EAX and Dolby Surround Sound? Both seem to the same thing. EAX is an sound API that Creative owns that has to do with sound placement in 3D. Dolby Surround Sound simulates almost the same thing, but more static things (Movies and Music) but it seems as though Dolby is making a move in the gaming sector. Does Dolby threat Creatives EAX in any way? Or are they two completley different things?

Oh and Bolloxoid, I think I get what you mean, about the Dolby Digital, I meant Dolby Surround Sound. Though, there seems to be alot of newer games that are being labeled with Dolby Digital and Surround Sound tags.

 

[Sxotty]

It also has the capability of taking analog signals and turning then into simulated digital or something (that still won't split the channels up so i'll be getting 2 channel sound). Fortunatley the Onkyo reciever i'm getting splits up as many channels as I want, so that could help out.

Do you mean like if you plug a microphone in?

Anyway you should still be getting 5.1 channel sound from all sources, however if the source is stereo than unless you change the driver to clone the front channel you end up with a 5.1 channel that tells it "No sound on the back speakers" hopefully you can enable crossover so LF sound gets put to your SUB.