Physics Processing Unit?

[wco81]

How would multiplatform games port if Xenon had this but the PS3 and Revolution didn't?

It is intriguing tho, because if they put in a dedicated chip instead of using the brute force of the CPUs, it's more likely that the dedicated chip would be more widely supported by games.

They also plan to produce a chip for laptops? How will they deal with th power not to mention the cost? Big price delta in mobile GPUs between the integrated GPUs and the dedicated ATI or nVidia mobile GPUs, like several hundred dollars it seems. You can only imagine what a laptop with a top GPU and a PPU would cost.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

woudn't you make it known that you've got the backing of MS? That's a key push-point.

Not if you aren't allow to do so... if nvidia was courting SONY, why didn't they make this public earlier? Answer, they didn't have permission from SONY to make what they were doing public.

NVidia weren;t hiding a new technolgy without any support, though. As a new development AGEIA are going to want as quick uptake as possible if they expect customers to buy the thing. Plus I can't see MS hiding something like this. They might - I'm not saying they wouldn't. But PS3 has been hyped from it's first conception, suggesting nothing could compete in power terms. MS would do well to sway public perception away from such beliefs as soon as possible before it becomes ingrained, and one way to do this is to comment on the formidable power you have. Hence the 'leaked' docs

The most likely system to incorporate it IMO is the Revolution, as Ninty have more time to include the tech than MS, haven't the same power-sillicon as it's competitors, and Sony will be wasting their time with it after shovelling so much mathematical oomph into their design.

Wow I don't know how you spun it in that direction, but I'm fairly certain this has nothing to do with nintendo. Nintendo doesn't need this kinda of physics processing for thier own games, and that usually dictates how they design thier consoles.

I doubt Ninty will take it up either, but I think there's more likelihood than MS!

What exactly makes you think about MS not having time? This company (ageis) has been courting PC developers for a while, and MS with direct X is deeply intrenched in PC development. They probably heard about this long before first silicon was made. I wouldn't be suprised if it ended up in directX...

If DirectX (XNA) incorporates AGEIA's Physics modelling, hardware support should be a doddle to add. I can well imagine support being included onthe software side.

For hardware inclusion, if this is a new idea for MS, they'll need a new Mobo, bus configuration and so forth to support the chip, plus working out where to get it fabbed for inclusion to their system when they're already getting several custom chips printed. This needs to be complete in a few months for fabbing to start prior to an early November release. A few months to add a new and completely non-fieldtested technology seems right risky to me. So unless MS have had this in mind all along, and have kept it hush until E3 to astound the world and take some of Cell's glory, I can't see it becoming a late addition.

 

[Khronus]

Well ATI said they want to go shopping.... this looks like a good aquisition target to me!

 

[Qroach]

NVidia weren;t hiding a new technolgy without any support, though.

No they were hiding any sort of relationship they had with Sony until Sony was ready to annouce it, do you see my point?

I doubt Ninty will take it up either, but I think there's more likelihood than MS!

Once again I see there's zero chance of nintendo incoporating this kind of technology. Give me one Nintendo made game on the gamecube that has or does need realistic physics? nintendo simply wouldn't have a use for it. MS on the other has lot's of games that need or require a realistic phsyics engine. Dang, Halo 2 used Havok.

For hardware inclusion, if this is a new idea for MS, they'll need a new Mobo, bus configuration and so forth to support the chip,

Says who? I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Qroach]

btw, why won't version answer anyone in here? I get the feeling he's having fun with us here.

 

[McFly]

I heard multiple times now on different news sites and boards that the PS3 is more powerful than Xenon and at the same time I heard multiple times that the PS3 will do more physics based rendering ... so maybe this will be part of the PS3 after all if 1+1 still get's 2, even if the 1s are just rumored 1s.

Fredi

 

[Carl B]

For hardware inclusion, if this is a new idea for MS, they'll need a new Mobo, bus configuration and so forth to support the chip,

Says who? I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

What do you mean says who? Unless this chip has been integrated into the XBox 2's design all along, to put it in there now is no small feat. We're talking brand new wire tracing on the mobo, possibly a new power supply spec for the NextBox, space to put the thing on (~140mm square is no joke), Plus my prior comment that it's expected RAM useage up to 128 MB's is pretty serious stuff in a generation where global RAM is looking to be 256-512.

So unless it's been there all along, which who knows, maybe it has, I just don't see how it's feasible to rework everything now in time for an October launch.

 

[Qroach]

What do you mean says who? Unless this chip has been integrated into the XBox 2's design all along, to put it in there now is no small feat. We're talking brand new wire tracing on the mobo, possibly a new power supply spec for the NextBox, space to put the thing on (~140mm square is no joke), Plus my prior comment that it's expected RAM useage up to 128 MB's is pretty serious stuff in a generation where global RAM is looking to be 256-512.

Cart before the horse = Wait until we know if the hardware is actually used in a console, before debating "how" it's integrated. Without knowing any of teh Xenon specs, sayign somethign like they need a new power supply, mobo etc, is simply jumping to conclusions.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I doubt Ninty will take it up either, but I think there's more likelihood than MS!

Once again I see there's zero chance of nintendo incoporating this kind of technology. Give me one Nintendo made game on the gamecube that has or does need realistic physics? nintendo simply wouldn't have a use for it. MS on the other has lot's of games that need or require a realistic phsyics engine. Dang, Halo 2 used Havok.

Luigi's Mansion. But I agree that it's unlikely Nintendo would use this chip. Not because they don't need it, but because they need to keep costs down.

 

[j^aws]

...
Wow I don't know how you spun it in that direction, but I'm fairly certain this has nothing to do with nintendo. Nintendo doesn't need this kinda of physics processing for thier own games, and that usually dictates how they design thier consoles.
...

Why doesn't Nintendo NEED this kind of physics but Xenon or PS3 do, whether they need it for their own games or not?

 

[j^aws]

I heard multiple times now on different news sites and boards that the PS3 is more powerful than Xenon and at the same time I heard multiple times that the PS3 will do more physics based rendering ... so maybe this will be part of the PS3 after all if 1+1 still get's 2, even if the 1s are just rumored 1s.

Fredi

I believe you mean this from Hofstee!

 

[McFly]

I heard multiple times now on different news sites and boards that the PS3 is more powerful than Xenon and at the same time I heard multiple times that the PS3 will do more physics based rendering ... so maybe this will be part of the PS3 after all if 1+1 still get's 2, even if the 1s are just rumored 1s.

Fredi

I believe you mean this from Hofstee!

Someone over here actualy started this whole "physics rendering" talk even before this one. It was on one of the first pages of that huge Cell thread.

Fredi

 

[Acert93]

Ageia is a XNA partner and supportive of the XNA initiative. Who knew that before yesterday? Yet obviously MS has known about Ageia long enough to think they were important enough to list among other middleware providers like Havok, Softimage, 3DS, Alias, and the like. Obviously MS knew something none of us did.

And none of us not under NDA know what is, and is not, going into X2. Even the leaked specs are not confirmed and are fairly loose (256+ RAM, 22+ GB/s bandwidth, etc...).

As for boasting about this, lets not forget that MS has not done any specific boasting at all. There have been some technological agreements noted in the press (IBM, ATI, the Flash memory making company) but very little about "Our system can specifically do this". It is very well possible MS could have a deal in place with Ageia and very few know about it. The fact MS has been very quiet about X2 (even the 2005 release date is NOT CONFIRMED by MS) and it seems like they will remain so until E3 or there about.

While none of this indicates PhysX will be in the X2, I think it is a little silly to draw any conclusions at this point. The facts are we know almost nothing solid about the X2 HW specifically; we know MS and Ageia have been working together for a while and MS thought well enough of their work to include their name in their XNA press releases; and Ageia would like to get this thing into a console if possible.

Nothing official indicates that the X2 cannot have a PhysX chip. A licensing agreement could have been established a year (or longer) ago and we would not have any knowledge of it. On the flip side we could conjecture that it may be concluded but that is pure conjecture with no evidence. If the X2 ends up with 4 PPC cores (as recently rumored) and each has 1-2 Vector units it may not need such a chip.

So it could end up in some HW, and it may not. But drawing any conclusions on what will be, wont, and cannot be included in any of the consoles at this point is silly. Most of us here only have leaked specs (which may be fake!) and press clippings, so lets not get carried away.

 

[j^aws]

I heard multiple times now on different news sites and boards that the PS3 is more powerful than Xenon and at the same time I heard multiple times that the PS3 will do more physics based rendering ... so maybe this will be part of the PS3 after all if 1+1 still get's 2, even if the 1s are just rumored 1s.

Fredi

I believe you mean this from Hofstee!

Someone over here actualy started this whole "physics rendering" talk even before this one. It was on one of the first pages of that huge Cell thread.

Fredi

I know I've used that Gamespot video ages ago with Hofstee's CELL presentation several times as an excuse for realtime raytracing, after all, light is a subset of physics...heck, throw in Radiosity also into the pot!

 

[McFly]

I know I've used that Gamespot video ages ago with Hofstee's CELL presentation several times as an excuse for realtime raytracing, after all, light is a subset of physics...heck, throw in Radiosity also into the pot!

Yeah, a one chip Cell solution that does the whole thing from the first input value to the last pixel output would be sweet, but only if it's fast enough to do everything in software at a speed that beats hardware based solutions available at the same timeframe.

Fredi

 

[j^aws]

I know I've used that Gamespot video ages ago with Hofstee's CELL presentation several times as an excuse for realtime raytracing, after all, light is a subset of physics...heck, throw in Radiosity also into the pot!

Yeah, a one chip Cell solution that does the whole thing from the first input value to the last pixel output would be sweet, but only if it's fast enough to do everything in software at a speed that beats hardware based solutions available at the same timeframe.

Fredi

You should check out this teaser pdf from SCEA circa 2001 at SIGGRAPH for next gen games,

http://www.research.scea.com/research/pdfs/la-siggraph-panel_2001_DOM.pdf

 

[McFly]

Thx Jaws.

Ageia interview: http://www.gamers-depot.com/interviews/agiea/001.htm

/. has it on the frontpage: http://slashdot.org/articles/05/03/08/1827239.shtml?tid=137

Fredi

 

[Wunderchu]

"Q&A: Epic Games' Tim Sweeney on Ageia PhysX"

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03/08/news_6119896.html

 

[Ty]

Yep, turns out this is the company my former co-worker went off to. He's responsible for making some of the software demos for them. Frankly when I heard about the idea, I never thought it would go anywhere as they were initially targeting motherboard integration and I didn't they would get much traction in that sector. /shrug.

 

[Qroach]

see what you can get out of him