Nvidia went SLI because they can't compete?

[wireframe]

It's amazing how this discussion seems to be operating on the assumption that a Geforce 6800 Ultra by itself cannot compete. Some of you make it sound like you would need two 6800 Ultras and even then you can't come close to a X850XT. Gimmie a break.

I also wonder how WaltC ended up posting on a 3D hardware enthusiast site. According to him SLI is no good and SM3.0 is more or less useless... where exactly is this pent up enthusiasm being diverted? The only logical conclusion I can draw is that both SLI and SM 3.0 are currently only offered by Nvidia and herein lies the objection. I don't like to think that, but how can you so passionately argue against options (options!) offered to the consumer?

I can honestly say that even though I could have an SLI rig under my desk tomorrow, I will choose not to invest in such a platform. I don't need that much power right now and prefer to wait for the next generation instead. However, like many others who like 3D hardware I am interested and excited to see something new. I think it's very cool that those who have the craving for more before the next gen is launched can go out and do something about it. Some of you just seem so hostile to the whole idea that you are making all sorts of weird objections. How can a choice that subtracts nothing from others be bad? I believe the situation is what is called Pareto Optimal.

Why can't someone make some outlandish statement like those buying SLI rigs help reduce prices for those who don't (and maybe cannot afford one)? Sure...SLI causes volume to go up, increased production leads to greater efficiency and therefore production costs can be reduced, leading to reduced consumer prices. Just one positive strange way to look at it to balance out all this gloom about everything.

3D is supposed to be fun!

 

[WaltC]

X850's or X850 XT PE? My comment was about the Platinum Edition cards ANova. Can I buy an X850 XT PE for <$500? I find the majority of them are over $700 on Pricewatch. So please, tell me how this card is worth the money? Where is your disdain for these cards? That was my point.

Again, since I guess you missed it the first time, I paid $485 for my x800 xt back in January. It clocks easily at the same speed as the Platinum Edition, which means it is indistinguishable in terms of performance--and it has the Vivo functionality built in as well--is a single-slot solution with copper cooler and came with about six games in the package, plus all appropriate cabling. When I have time I intend to advance the clocks a tiny bump ahead and run at the x850 clock--which is about 5% faster than I'm already running at the moment, so I don't even think its worth it--which is why I haven't done it yet...

I bought it through New Egg, actually, at the suggestion of poster out here, as a matter of fact... (I even talked about it some in a thread or two as I recall a couple of months ago...) Sure, you can pay more depending on certain variables--but you don't *have to*, is the point. I certainly didn't. I mean, finding the absolute highest price around for for an xt-class card and using it to defend the high price of nV SLI seems to me weak indeed...

 

[WaltC]

It's amazing how this discussion seems to be operating on the assumption that a Geforce 6800 Ultra by itself cannot compete. Some of you make it sound like you would need two 6800 Ultras and even then you can't come close to a X850XT. Gimmie a break.

You may not be aware of it (which would be odd considering your last post), but this thread concerns nV SLI--not nV single-card performance.

I also wonder how WaltC ended up posting on a 3D hardware enthusiast site. According to him SLI is no good and SM3.0 is more or less useless... where exactly is this pent up enthusiasm being diverted? The only logical conclusion I can draw is that both SLI and SM 3.0 are currently only offered by Nvidia and herein lies the objection. I don't like to think that, but how can you so passionately argue against options (options!) offered to the consumer?

My Objection to nV SLI: costs way too much for the advantages gained. I've already stated that if ATi emulated nVidia's approach it would make no difference in my assessment.

My Objection to SM3.0: It does *zero* for IQ and most developers aren't yet adept with SM2.0 at present, let alone SM3.0. I have yet to see a single game for sale in which SM3.0 support (which just isn't in the majority of games currently published anyway) offers me an incentive to desire to own currently available SM3.0 hardware. So why should I desire to own such hardware?

Instead, I hear nothing but the same old jibber-jabber about how great it is even though it offers nothing for IQ and how many developers will love it enough one day in the future to code for it in their games. Is it really so surprising that I should be unimpressed?

Hopefully, now your questions have been laid to rest...

I can honestly say that even though I could have an SLI rig under my desk tomorrow, I will choose not to invest in such a platform. I don't need that much power right now and prefer to wait for the next generation instead.

OK, but I'm at a loss as to how you might think your reason for turning down nV SLI is any *better* than mine... Neither of us is going to buy it, apparently.

However, like many others who like 3D hardware I am interested and excited to see something new. I think it's very cool that those who have the craving for more before the next gen is launched can go out and do something about it. Some of you just seem so hostile to the whole idea that you are making all sorts of weird objections. How can a choice that subtracts nothing from others be bad? I believe the situation is what is called Pareto Optimal.

Oh, I see. Just because something is "new" I'm supposed to giggle like a school boy in love without even looking at what's being offered to see what lies beneath the marketing...? I think not... I've had enough marketing to last me a lifetime, thanks--don't need any more.

Why can't someone make some outlandish statement like those buying SLI rigs help reduce prices for those who don't (and maybe cannot afford one)?

What might ever make you think that everyone who can afford an nV SLI system *wants one*?....

Sure...SLI causes volume to go up, increased production leads to greater efficiency and therefore production costs can be reduced, leading to reduced consumer prices. Just one positive strange way to look at it to balance out all this gloom about everything.

3D is supposed to be fun!

And 3d forums are supposed to host intelligent discussion about the pros *and cons* of 3d hardware and other 3d-related things. Generally they don't exist just to parrot the marketing slogans of the companies trying to sell us their products, right? What makes 3d fun for me is making intelligent decisions as to what I buy. Being a marketing droid who falls for every "new and improved" gimmick that comes along strikes me as particularly gloomy--but that's just me...

 

[ANova]

X850's or X850 XT PE? My comment was about the Platinum Edition cards ANova. Can I buy an X850 XT PE for <$500? I find the majority of them are over $700 on Pricewatch. So please, tell me how this card is worth the money? Where is your disdain for these cards? That was my point.

This argument is rather fruitless. If you really feel the need for that extra 5% performance increase that the XT PE offers over the plain XT turn on Overdrive.

I also wonder how WaltC ended up posting on a 3D hardware enthusiast site. According to him SLI is no good and SM3.0 is more or less useless... where exactly is this pent up enthusiasm being diverted? The only logical conclusion I can draw is that both SLI and SM 3.0 are currently only offered by Nvidia and herein lies the objection. I don't like to think that, but how can you so passionately argue against options (options!) offered to the consumer?

I think there is a bias you may not be aware of here. You don't seem to realize that we are arguing against SLi purely from a consumer's point of view using a combination of performance, features and cost. Just because nvidia may say SLi is the greatest thing since sliced bread does not make it so. Who cares if it's a new product offering more variety, neither automatically mean it's worth buying or even a good product. That's called buying into hype and marketing.

 

[DemoCoder]

Don't you realize that the same thing you are criticizing nV SLI for also applies to the XT PE? I don't care if you can overclock your card. Many people won't. The fact is, ATI is selling a SKU for $700+ that offers extremely marginal performance improvement. Why aren't you claiming that the XT PE shouldn't exist and is a waste of money?

You have nothing to say about the fact that ATI is selling single-slot GPUs SKUs that cost nearly as much as an SLI system, but offer less performance gain at high-IQ situations. Isn't a $700 SKU card ridiculous? Can't you atleast be fair and apply the same criteria, consumer price/performance to ATI's uber high-end SKUs?

 

[BRiT]

DC, its not ATI that's selling the card for $700, its the retailers. This is similar to how newegg is charging $360 for the same X800 XL that CompUSA is charging $299 and CompUSABusiness is charging $273.

 

[ANova]

Don't you realize that the same thing you are criticizing nV SLI for also applies to the XT PE? I don't care if you can overclock your card. Many people won't. The fact is, ATI is selling a SKU for $700+ that offers extremely marginal performance improvement. Why aren't you claiming that the XT PE shouldn't exist and is a waste of money?

You have nothing to say about the fact that ATI is selling single-slot GPUs SKUs that cost nearly as much as an SLI system, but offer less performance gain at high-IQ situations. Isn't a $700 SKU card ridiculous? Can't you atleast be fair and apply the same criteria, consumer price/performance to ATI's uber high-end SKUs?

On the contrary, I do criticize ATI for the PE. I think it was a cheap shot at taking the performance crown. Yes, I do believe $700 plus is rediculous, hell I believe $500 is too much to spend, which is exactly why I'm so opposed to nvidia's $800-$1200 SLi setup. On the other hand the MSRP for the X850 XT PE (as set by ATI) is $550, not $700+. ATI has no control over the prices set forth by retailers.

 

[DemoCoder]

BRiT, ATI created the Platinum Edition SKU, not the retailers, and it is an extremely expensive product. You can't blame retailers alone for the price since availability controls that and ATI controls availability. Price here is determined by supply. Can I excuse NV because retailers selling NV SLI set the ultimate price?

The fact is, the XTPE is super expensive in practice and delivers hardly any performance speedup. I only mention it, because NV SLI delivers alot more gain in high IQ situations, but takes the brunt of substantially more criticism, even though the price performance curve is probably better.

 

[jvd]

Democoder , my uncle was able to purchase a x850xt pe for only 520$ before taxes from a small shop in bayside queens new york.

Its not ati pricing this and its no more thier fualt for the prices than the 700$ geforce 6800ultra extremes .

 

[ondaedg]

API support is not required Walt. You are expected to know that. Who cares if Nvidia does custom driver support? ATI will do it as well. This has been covered countless times...

Let me put it like this, then...API support for an x800 xt or a 6800U is not required, either, right? But if you can find a single 3d game shipping anywhere which says on the box: "x800 xt or GF6800U required" as a minimum standard for running the game I'll not only eat my hat, but yours, too...

So if the top-end single 3d cards available, which outsell SLI systems by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds SLI systems will ever be required? Zero, seems to me. That's what I was talking about. Before we'd ever see "SLI required" on a game box, we'd see "x800 xt or GF6800U required" first, I have no doubt. And I don't think we may ever see that...at least not in the next few years (and where will SLI as a concept be then, I wonder? An historical footnote?)

API support for SLI? Does anyone have any clue what Walt is talking about? Does Walt know what he is talking about? Maybe he jumped into the conversation a bit late....

Do you think a Hummer H2 is a cost effective driving solution? I don't, yet there were waiting lists for people to buy them just so they can drive up and down a fully paved road. SLI is no different.

Let me put it to you this way...if people had to buy *two* Hummers just to get the functionality of one of them, how many Hummers do you think might sell?... I really have to say that I don't think a "Hummer SLI" ad campaign would get very far in terms of results...

Anyone understand how Walt can turn that cost analogy into a comparison of 2 Hummer H2s? Once again Walt, you have lost me. Congratulations.


The issue isn't strictly about cost by any means--it's about *what you get* for the cost you pay--which is what a price-performance profile is meant to impart.

It is all about cost. That is what much of this thread has been about. Cost to performance ratio. Not two hummers.

My roommate has a 6800GT and I have a Radeon 9700. I see no visible difference in image quality. They both do a great job. Review after review that I have read has given both Radeon and Geforce cards excellent ratings for image quality. Yet you pull out an iq statement. Care to show some proof? I for one would love to see some.

I have not read a single review nor seen it with my own eyes where any x800 card is visibly superior to the 6x00 series. Linkies? Thanks Walt. I know you'll come through with some objective sources.

What IQ statement is that? You mean the one where I talked about *benchmarks*...??? Gosh, I would hope at this date that we don't need to rehash what nVidia did with benchmarks and IQ for all of 2003 and most of 2004 (and may still be doing with benchmarks--for all I know.)

Let me get this straight. You are pulling out the "Nvidia is Evil" card?
Amazing.

Yes, I know that the 6800GT catches up to the R9700 in terms of IQ when playing games. I should hope that it would, seeing as how I bought an R9700P in Sept. 2002, and it was many, many moons after that before nV shipped the nV40 and its subsequent variations such as the 6800GT. Glad to see they've caught up to what ATi shipped 2.5 years ago... But I can't see how your comments actually speak to mine here, though.

I can see that you will never get it. I have seen some change in others on this forum recently. You on the otherhand, just haven't caught on yet...

You are exactly right! Let me state it again for the record...

"I'll never get nV SLI." D)

Everyone has their reasons for making a purchasing decision. You obviously have yours. (understatement of the year )

All I can say is: How dare a video card vendor produce a product that allows me to play the games I like to play with all the eye candy on, 4xAA, 16xAF, and at the highest resolutions! The nerve!

Actually, I'm pretty glad that ATi did that already and that I'm doing that with my x800 xt... BTW, I've ready many posts from owners of *single* high-end nV 3d cards who feel the same way.

Glad you enjoy your purchase. I am also glad that you have read many posts of satisfied single users. Remember this though, if someone wants to buy an ATI or Nvidia dual solution, they won't give a rat's ar$e what you say. Why? Well, just ask anyone who has an SLI system.

Buh bye.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Remember this though, if someone wants to buy an ATI or Nvidia dual solution, they won't give a rat's ar$e what you say. Why? Well, just ask anyone who has an SLI system.

You have no clue about how respected Walt's opinion is around here then.

Buh bye.

Smartest thing you've posted at this site.

 

[trinibwoy]

Who cares if it's a new product offering more variety, neither automatically mean it's worth buying or even a good product. That's called buying into hype and marketing.

People who have the money care. And 'hype' is an integral part of the whole enthusiast scene. Some people like Nvidia more simply because ATI's offerings are arguably boring even though they bring strong performance. They've been serving the same warmed-over dish for years now. Same goes for mobo chipsets - Nvidia dominates the market because their boards have a good reputation for stability and overclockability which attracts the tweakers and modders.

It's obvious to everyone that SLI is an expensive proposition with less than optimal bang for the buck. But as Dave's charts show, it can provide significant gains in certain scenarios. This alone indicates that it will be worthwhile to a particular market segment. WaltC claimed he cannot game in 16x12 where SLI shows the most gains - so what - there are people with high quality monitors (like myself) that can do that at high refresh rates.

 

[digitalwanderer]

'hype' is an integral part of the whole enthusiast scene.

A very, VERY bad part if you believe what they're telling you without trying to disseminate between the truth and bullshit.

there are people with high quality monitors (like myself) that can do that at high refresh rates.

And I hate you for it.

(I soooo want a monitor that can do 16x12 @ 85Hz+...it's just the jealousy talking :? )

 

[Sxotty]

My Objection to SM3.0: It does *zero* for IQ and most developers aren't yet adept with SM2.0 at present, let alone SM3.0. I have yet to see a single game for sale in which SM3.0 support (which just isn't in the majority of games currently published anyway) offers me an incentive to desire to own currently available SM3.0 hardware. So why should I desire to own such hardware?

No one says you should desire to own such hardware. In fact there is no reason you should desire to own anything more than an egg beater, but that doesn't mean you object to a toaster simply because you do not want one. Having any objection to SM3.0 is ridiculous b/c it is a standard. If someone has objection to what are proprietary technologies then it is understandable. If ATI had developed 3dC and said no one else could use it but them, unless they paid ATI a royalty I would object, but as it is why would I care?

Most people cannot drive a fast car well, but that doesn't mean I object to someone giving me a dodge viper

Now in closing I assume, just perhaps you were trying to say something along the lines of "I do not currently see an advantage in X" but object is just too strong of a word for something like this which makes no sense.

P.S. my x800 vivo was better in the price/performance ratio 8) And btw is the only reason I stuck with ATI for the 3rd card in a row.

edit: I am being verbose b/c I dont want to write a paper that is due tomorrow

 

[trinibwoy]

A very, VERY bad part if you believe what they're telling you without trying to disseminate between the truth and bullshit.

Not the marketing hype. The hype on forums. Compare the number of SM3.0 and SLI threads in the community to the number of "ATI is going to a 90nm process with increased clocks" threads. It's the new and exciting technologies that get people's blood boiling and keep the forums alive. I for one enjoy talking about emergent technologies like SLI and PPU's more than clock bumps from Intel or ATI. What fun!!

That's just the forum browser in me talking - I'll take a PE any day for playing games

And I hate you for it.

(I soooo want a monitor that can do 16x12 @ 85Hz+...it's just the jealousy talking :? )

Hehe. Viewsonic P95f+ baby !!

 

[Pete]

nV SLI is great for nV, no doubt, but not so hot for the SLI consumer in terms of price-performance...

I wonder if you have the same criticism for those $700-800 Platinum Editions floating around. Nah, we couldn't expect fair criticism from you, could we?

$700-800 is still less then the $1000+ required for SLi. Of course, you can find X850s for under $500 if you look hard enough.

Eh? Chumbo.com has been advertising a BFG 6800GT SLI package (dual 6800GTs and a 530W PSU) for $850 for some time.

Your package is missing the cost of a SLI Mobo

And ANova's comparison is missing the cost of a PCIe mobo.

I don't think the difference in price b/w a SLI and non-SLI PCIe MB is worth haggling over when we're talking about $300+ video cards. The Dell/Compaq owners of the world aren't going to SLI anything. It's mainly enthusiasts who either (over)pay for Falcon NW / Alienware / DellXPS or just roll their own that will want SLI for gaming, and most of them will have to upgrade to PCIe anyway (as ATi and now nV have done) to stay at the cutting edge of video card price and performance. So an extra $20-50 for an SLI MB is really not worth discussing, IMO, especially since ATi doesn't offer a solution with comparable performance.

 

[Fred da Roza]

Who cares if it's a new product offering more variety, neither automatically mean it's worth buying or even a good product. That's called buying into hype and marketing.

People who have the money care. And 'hype' is an integral part of the whole enthusiast scene. Some people like Nvidia more simply because ATI's offerings are arguably boring even though they bring strong performance. They've been serving the same warmed-over dish for years now. Same goes for mobo chipsets - Nvidia dominates the market because their boards have a good reputation for stability and overclockability which attracts the tweakers and modders.

It's obvious to everyone that SLI is an expensive proposition with less than optimal bang for the buck. But as Dave's charts show, it can provide significant gains in certain scenarios. This alone indicates that it will be worthwhile to a particular market segment. WaltC claimed he cannot game in 16x12 where SLI shows the most gains - so what - there are people with high quality monitors (like myself) that can do that at high refresh rates.

Not sure why some have a problem with SLI as well. Personally I wouldn't buy it (I recently bought a MSI Neo4 Platinum with a single PCIE graphics slot) and think it's a waste of money. And I wouldn’t even recommend spending the extra $50 for the motherboard. But what is the big deal?

As a side note SLI (and Gen-lock) is drawing a lot of attention in the flight simulator market. The extra ~$700.00 per PC for the second card is peanuts when you are talking about 20 – 40 million per flight simulator. So there are some who really hope SLI succeeds.

 

[AndrewM]

Hehe. Viewsonic P95f+ baby !!

Sony G420 here

 

[digitalwanderer]

Hehe. Viewsonic P95f+ baby !!

Sony G420 here

Dell P780 here....

 

[WaltC]

API support for SLI? Does anyone have any clue what Walt is talking about? Does Walt know what he is talking about? Maybe he jumped into the conversation a bit late....

Apparently you did not read the post I originally responded to, which would answer your question...

Let me also repeat:

Let me put it like this, then...API support for an x800 xt or a 6800U is not required, either, right? But if you can find a single 3d game shipping anywhere which says on the box: "x800 xt or GF6800U required" as a minimum standard for running the game I'll not only eat my hat, but yours, too...

So if the top-end single 3d cards available, which outsell SLI systems by a wide margin, are not required by game developers, then what are the odds SLI systems will ever be required? Zero, seems to me. That's what I was talking about. Before we'd ever see "SLI required" on a game box, we'd see "x800 xt or GF6800U required" first, I have no doubt. And I don't think we may ever see that...at least not in the next few years (and where will SLI as a concept be then, I wonder? An historical footnote?)

Anyone understand how Walt can turn that cost analogy into a comparison of 2 Hummer H2s? Once again Walt, you have lost me. Congratulations.

Thank you... I do confess that I didn't intend to lose you, so I'll try again...

nV SLI = How many nV 3d cards? (be quick now...)

A) One 3d card
B) Two 3d cards

Hummer purchase = how many Hummers? One Hummer, or two? (Heh...)

Cleared up for you?...

It is all about cost. That is what much of this thread has been about. Cost to performance ratio. Not two hummers.

Thanks for repeating my point about the cost to performance ratio. You were first to bring Hummers into it, weren't you?

I have not read a single review nor seen it with my own eyes where any x800 card is visibly superior to the 6x00 series. Linkies? Thanks Walt. I know you'll come through with some objective sources.

Well good for you... If you wanted to talk about about x800's instead of R9700P's why didn't you just say so?

Let me get this straight. You are pulling out the "Nvidia is Evil" card?
Amazing.

Well, gosh, since you are the one who says "evil"--I think it's rather you who is saying that, don't you? You have the right to your own opinion of course.

Everyone has their reasons for making a purchasing decision. You obviously have yours. (understatement of the year )

How nice of you to finally notice that I did indeed list my reasons...

Glad you enjoy your purchase. I am also glad that you have read many posts of satisfied single users. Remember this though, if someone wants to buy an ATI or Nvidia dual solution, they won't give a rat's ar$e what you say. Why? Well, just ask anyone who has an SLI system.

Buh bye.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ar$e, either, because my post was not intended to influence anybody, but merely to state my opinion on the matter. Bye-Bye...!