HDTV gaming observations -PS2 & Xbox

[zurich]

So I got my 23 inch widescreen LCD panel as I mentioned earlier, and absolutely love it. However, gaming on an HDTV set (720p native here) was sooooo not what I expected.

First off:

480p gaming is FULL of jaggies EVERYWHERE, even Rallisport Challenge 2 looks like a PS2 launch game, it's really quite bad. The nicely modeled Ryu in Ninja Gaiden suddenly became a jagfest, it was really messed up. My previous set was a 20 inch piece of shit Panasonic with only one RCA input, and the interlaced pseudo-AA really covered up all the jaggies, i mean I honestly was impressed and though RSC2 and NG had some sort of AA going on.

Next observation is that to me, the PS2 on component 480i but deinterlaced with the Faroudja DCDi chip looks FAR BETTER than native 480p Xbox titles. Even games like Space Channel 5 Part 2 had a much much more 'cleaner' IQ to jag-fest Xbox titles. I'm seriously considering disabling 480p in the control panel and letting the Faroudja chip do its deinterlacing, because I have been seriously disappointed in the 480p from this gen.. but what should I expect? It's really just PC gaming @ 640x480 with no AA...

The other thing I found interesting was how good games looked stretched from 4:3 to 16:9 (perhaps just because of my set? not sure, the nonlinear scaling mode looks REALLY good). At first I was frantically trying to find evidice (warped text, bitmaps) that games like Space Channel 5 Pt 2 didn't have a letterbox mode, because it looked so authentic. One of the only games that looked squashed was Silent Hill 3.. Zone of the Enders 2 and Rez were REALLY something to behold @ 480p and 16:9.

BTW my set is the Del W2300 LCD TV/PC monitor (PERFECT for a small apartment), 23inches but really is MUCH bigger than it sounds, 1280x768 native res.

 

[marconelly!]

Those are some pretty controversal observations
I think part of your problem is that you are using LCD TV set, and on such set, pixels are very sharply defined. On a regular CTR, pixels still have a bit of a fuzzy edges, which makes for much more natural look, in my opinion, and probably makes 480P look better than it does on LCD

the nonlinear scaling mode looks REALLY good).

How does that work? I mean, how it is even possible that you can't see that the image is squished/stretched??

Zone of the Enders 2 and Rez were REALLY something to behold @ 480p and 16:9.

You are talking about the Faroudja output again? I'm surprised that it does such a good job.

 

[-tkf-]

So I got my 23 inch widescreen LCD panel as I mentioned earlier, and absolutely love it. However, gaming on an HDTV set (720p native here) was sooooo not what I expected.

Some interesting stuff and it seems like something is wrong

Sounds to me like your native component HD input is the problem, normally a 480p signal would look better than a 480i.

My PJ has the same Deinterlacer chip and while the difference between p and i isn't as big as say composite vs component/rgb a 480p signal does look better. But anyway i was underwhelmed by HD games as well, maybe the european tradition of 100hz TVs took some of the joy.

 

[cybamerc]

Well... 480p is always going to look like crap on a 720p native LCD flat panel. If 480i looks better it must be because the flicker filter adds that extra blur.

 

[DemoCoder]

I have the exact opposite experience. PS2 looks like crap on my PLV-70 720p projector. 480p looks far better. Maybe your scalar sucks.

 

[zurich]

Well... 480p is always going to look like crap on a 720p native LCD flat panel. If 480i looks better it must be because the flicker filter adds that extra blur.

That's exactly it.

I have the exact opposite experience. PS2 looks like crap on my PLV-70 720p projector. 480p looks far better. Maybe your scalar sucks.

I don't think so, in my experience with LCDs, the shittier the scaler, the blurrier the 'scaled' output. The 480p was very crisp, hence the problem with the aliasing. DVDs look great

Sounds to me like your native component HD input is the problem, normally a 480p signal would look better than a 480i.

Well people have often said at AVSForum that console people would be better off running their systems through 480i.. go figure. The 480i definitely has a 'blur' to it, but the 480p on Xbox games also has some serious aliasing.

Those are some pretty controversal observations
I think part of your problem is that you are using LCD TV set, and on such set, pixels are very sharply defined. On a regular CTR, pixels still have a bit of a fuzzy edges, which makes for much more natural look, in my opinion, and probably makes 480P look better than it does on LCD

I agree. I'm going to borrow Soul Calibur 2 on Xbox from a friend and check it out.

How does that work? I mean, how it is even possible that you can't see that the image is squished/stretched??

My hunch is that the centre of the screen keeps it aspect ratio, and the sides are stretched, as I didn't see any cropping and/or zooming.

You are talking about the Faroudja output again? I'm surprised that it does such a good job.

Heh so was I! The Faroudja output is definitely 'softer' and mutes the colours somewhat, but I think for the purpose of gaming it gives a nice AA-like effect.

 

[marconelly!]

Make sure to try some of the PS2 games in their native 480p mode as well - see how that pans out.

 

[maskrider]

I have the exact opposite experience. PS2 looks like crap on my PLV-70 720p projector. 480p looks far better. Maybe your scalar sucks.

I don't think so, in my experience with LCDs, the shittier the scaler, the blurrier the 'scaled' output. The 480p was very crisp, hence the problem with the aliasing. DVDs look great

Sharp aliased edges will be amplified during scaling.

I agree. I'm going to borrow Soul Calibur 2 on Xbox from a friend and check it out.

Make sure you play at its glorious 720p mode, but 4:3 center portion only.

Heh so was I! The Faroudja output is definitely 'softer' and mutes the colours somewhat, but I think for the purpose of gaming it gives a nice AA-like effect.

For 480i sources, the Faroudja DCDi will introduce anti-aliasing like effect, and hence the image is blurred a little bit.

 

[MonkeyLicker]

I believe your LCD is a fixed-pixel display, so I'm pretty sure it scales everything to 720p.
I've heard many times that 480p looks pretty bad on one of these types of displays.
I can assure you that games that run in 480p look much better when the display can do that resolution natively.
If I'm wrong about any or all of this then please correct me.

 

[zurich]

I believe your LCD is a fixed-pixel display, so I'm pretty sure it scales everything to 720p.
I've heard many times that 480p looks pretty bad on one of these types of displays.
I can assure you that games that run in 480p look much better when the display can do that resolution natively.
If I'm wrong about any or all of this then please correct me.

Well a native 480p display would kinda suck, as 480p is at the low end of the spectrum I think a CRT HDTV would output a much better picture, but I don't have the space for that kind of system.

 

[zurich]

Make sure to try some of the PS2 games in their native 480p mode as well - see how that pans out.

I tried SSX3 in 480p and it was pretty jaggy, the 480i mode was nicer, if a little 'washed out'. I guess it comes down to personal preference...

 

[hey69]

can you post some pics ? 480i and 480p
I would like to see the diff

 

[zurich]

can you post some pics ? 480i and 480p
I would like to see the diff

Like with what, a digital camera? It's not like I can hit printscreen

 

[hey69]

eh yeah, a digital cam offcourse

 

[Ozymandis]

You're having the same problem I did when I got my LCD panel. 480p stuff looks pretty bad. The scalers on all of these things don't seem to be that great, I tried a more-expensive Samsung, same issue with jagginess.

For this reason I would not recommend an LCD for gaming. Better to get a small, cheap widescreen CRT HDTV. Or if you've got the kind of money for an LCD, spend a little more and get a small 480p plasma (watch for burn-in!) or the smallest DLP. Any of those 3 options will give you not just better 480p but also:

-better blacks
-better response time
-more display area

Now mostly I use mine for PC gaming when I can set the resolution to widescreen. When you run at the native resolution of the panel, it looks pretty good.

Sharp aliased edges will be amplified during scaling.

Yup. Movies don't tend to have sharp edges too often, so they're not as much of a problem.

 

[Blade]

When I went to one of Nintendo's pre-launch parties for the GameCube, I noticed that things looked very jaggy on their HDTV's. The day I got my GCN home, I immediately fired up Rogue Leader to see if my TV would have the same look.. and it was very smooth.

 

[zurich]

You're having the same problem I did when I got my LCD panel. 480p stuff looks pretty bad. The scalers on all of these things don't seem to be that great, I tried a more-expensive Samsung, same issue with jagginess.

For this reason I would not recommend an LCD for gaming. Better to get a small, cheap widescreen CRT HDTV. Or if you've got the kind of money for an LCD, spend a little more and get a small 480p plasma (watch for burn-in!) or the smallest DLP. Any of those 3 options will give you not just better 480p but also:

-better blacks
-better response time
-more display area

Now mostly I use mine for PC gaming when I can set the resolution to widescreen. When you run at the native resolution of the panel, it looks pretty good.

I agree, but for my purposes (living in a very small space), the multifunctionality of this set can't be beat really. Plasma has obvious draw backs, DLPs start at 43 inches at $3999 CDN, and I don't have the room for a HDTV CRT and separate computer desk (I did extensive research into the HDTV CRT as a computer monitor and it didn't look promising, at all).

Oh I just realized Steel Batallion: Line of Contact was 720p, need to check that out!

BTW, I saw a version of Matrix Reloaded in 720p native - WOW. Here's hoping next gen is much more 720p friendly

 

[I.S.T.]

You release Steel Batallion? Wow.