Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[iroboto]

Sigh, we've been though this so many times.

It has the full RDNA2 feature set, but not the full RDNA2 architecture, you do not need the full RDNA2 architecture to have the full RDNA2 feature set.

It even says it right there in the part you quoted



As far as I'm aware Microsoft have never stated it's full RDNA2 architecture, they've always stated it has the full RDNA2 feature set which is not the same thing.

As it's been clarified this is how they line up in terms of what they're made up of.

PS5:

• Front end = RDNA1
• CU's = RDNA2
• Back end = RDNA1(Hence lack of hardware VRS support)

Series consoles:

• Front end = RDNA1
• CU's = RDNA2
• Back end = RDNA2 (Hence hardware VRS support)

Front end Should be RDNA2 otherwise no mesh shader support. The number of scan converters is rdna 1 though.

It’s only missing infinity cache and it’s got a pretty custom setup on the numbers of front end and backend.

I’d say it’s pretty much rdna 2. But they really carved it up to fit the performance price point they were looking for.

 

[davis.anthony]

Front end Should be RDNA2 otherwise no mesh shader support. The number of scan converters is rdna 1 though.

It’s only missing infinity cache and it’s got a pretty custom setup on the numbers of front end and backend.

I’d say it’s pretty much rdna 2. But they really carved it up to fit the performance price point they were looking for.

Yep, both of them are a mixture but XSS/X just happen to have more RDNA2 than PS5 has.

Ah, all of this is brining back memories of two years ago, do you remember how bad (and funny) it was with the whole PS5 is RDNA 1.5

 

[Globalisateur]

Front end Should be RDNA2 otherwise no mesh shader support. The number of scan converters is rdna 1 though.

It’s only missing infinity cache and it’s got a pretty custom setup on the numbers of front end and backend.

I’d say it’s pretty much rdna 2. But they really carved it up to fit the performance price point they were looking for.

Mesh shaders is implemented by primitive shaders hardware which is also on RDNA1. Mesh Shaders is only an API.

 

[iroboto]

Mesh shaders is implemented by primitive shaders hardware which is also on RDNA1. Mesh Shaders is only an API.

primitive shaders augment the geometry section of 3D pipeline. Mesh shaders completely replace the front end of the 3D pipeline.

While they can do similar things, it would be a mistake to think the only difference is just a software difference. Mesh shaders have significantly simplified geometry stack compared to primitive which is an augmentation of the original front end.

All feature sets on direct X require hardware and driver support.

If all primitive shaders rdna 1 devices could do mesh shaders via hardware, AMD would have released drivers for mesh shader support.

 

[chris1515]

primitive shaders augment the geometry section of 3D pipeline. Mesh shaders completely replace the front end of the 3D pipeline.

While they can do similar things, it would be a mistake to think the only difference is just a software difference. Mesh shaders have significantly simplified geometry stack compared to primitive which is an augmentation of the original front end.

All feature sets on direct X require hardware and driver support.

If all primitive shaders rdna 1 devices could do mesh shaders via hardware, AMD would have released drivers for mesh shader support.

This is what AMD told about primitive shader, this is the hardware implementation and mesh shader is only the API. PS5 use native primitive shader as API with less abstraction than DX12. AMD probably did not release mesh shader support because RDNA 1 is not fully compliant with DX12 features set no raytracing, no hardware VRS or Sampler feedback.

西川善司の3DGE：Primitive Shader対Mesh Shaderの真実。ジオメトリパイプライン戦争の内幕とAMDのゲーマー向けGPU戦略

　去る2022年12月，AMDのRadeon GPU戦略を統括するDavid Wang氏とRick Bergman氏に，インタビューする機会を得た。本稿では，彼らに聞いた「Primitive Shader対Mesh Shader」のジオメトリパイプライン標準化争いの実情と，今後のゲーマー向けGPU戦略についてをレポートしたい。

www.4gamer.net

In 　December 2022, AMD's David Wang ( Senior Vice President , Engineering , Radeon Technologies Group , AMD ) and Rick Bergman ( Executive Vice President , Computing and Graphics Business Group , AMD ) I had the opportunity to interview him.

Mr. Wang
　Certainly, Mesh Shader was adopted as standard in DirectX 12. However, the new geometry pipeline concept originally started with the concept of tidying up the complicated geometry pipeline, making it easier for game developers to use, and to make it easier to extract performance. In other words, it can be said that both AMD and NVIDIA had the same goal as the starting point of the idea. To be frank, Primitive Shader and Mesh Shader have many similarities in terms of functionality, although there are differences in implementation.
　So did AMD abandon the Primitive Shader? As for hardware, Primitive Shader still exists, and how to use Mesh Shader is realized with Primitive Shader , it corresponds to Mesh Shader with such an image.

 

[eastmen]

Sigh, we've been though this so many times.

It has the full RDNA2 feature set, but not the full RDNA2 architecture, you do not need the full RDNA2 architecture to have the full RDNA2 feature set.

It even says it right there in the part you quoted



As far as I'm aware Microsoft have never stated it's full RDNA2 architecture, they've always stated it has the full RDNA2 feature set which is not the same thing.

As it's been clarified this is how they line up in terms of what they're made up of.

PS5:

• Front end = RDNA1
• CU's = RDNA2
• Back end = RDNA1(Hence lack of hardware VRS support)

Series consoles:

• Front end = RDNA1
• CU's = RDNA2
• Back end = RDNA2 (Hence hardware VRS support)

All I see from your post on is a bunch of people making assumptions of what it is vs just reading what MS says it is.

 

[davis.anthony]

All I see from your post on is a bunch of people making assumptions of what it is vs just reading what MS says it is.

Microsoft said this...

Our new Xbox consoles are uniquely positioned to take advantage of the full feature set of RDNA 2 in hardware.

Which doesn't support your argument about Series consoles being pure RDNA2 architecture.

And we know from small titbits in the Hot Chips presentation Microsoft did that it's not pure RDNA2.

 

[iroboto]

This is what AMD told about primitive shader, this is the hardware implementation and mesh shader is only the API. PS5 use native primitive shader as API with less abstraction than DX12. AMD probably did not release mesh shader support because RDNA 1 is not fully compliant with DX12 features set no raytracing, no hardware VRS or Sampler feedback.

西川善司の3DGE：Primitive Shader対Mesh Shaderの真実。ジオメトリパイプライン戦争の内幕とAMDのゲーマー向けGPU戦略

　去る2022年12月，AMDのRadeon GPU戦略を統括するDavid Wang氏とRick Bergman氏に，インタビューする機会を得た。本稿では，彼らに聞いた「Primitive Shader対Mesh Shader」のジオメトリパイプライン標準化争いの実情と，今後のゲーマー向けGPU戦略についてをレポートしたい。

www.4gamer.net

And RDNA1 has primitive shaders and does not support mesh shaders. I don’t care what he says because I’m positive that translation is incorrect, all the way back to vega primitive shaders have been around and none of them have received driver updates to support mesh shaders which were announced some time ago.

Sony can do “anything” they want with their apis and they do not support it either. So I disagree entirely with the translation.

Mesh shaders were brought into Dx12 by nvidia. Nvidia developed mesh shaders while amd developed primitive shaders. You’re telling me they built the same hardware all this time but called them different things ?

 

[chris1515]

And RDNA1 has primitive shaders and does not support mesh shaders. I don’t care what he says because I’m positive that translation is incorrect, all the way back to vega primitive shaders have been around and none of them have received driver updates to support mesh shaders which were announced some time ago.

Sony can do “anything” they want with their apis and they do not support it either. So I disagree entirely with the translation.

Mesh shaders were brought into Dx12 by nvidia. Nvidia developed mesh shaders while amd developed primitive shaders. You’re telling me they built the same hardware all this time but called them different things ?

This is not the same hardware but this is the same goal. DX12 is jut an API, this is just software. There is a reason AMD mesh shader is very slow on RDNA 2 and RDNA 3 GPU.

The 4Gamer
　new geometry pipeline has been settled by going with Mesh Shader, but honestly, as far as I know, there are very few game titles that actively use Mesh Shader. What is actually going on in game development?

Mr. Wang
　Since the PS5 GPU is an AMD RDNA-based GPU, it is equipped with a Primitive Shader and can be used natively (from the PS5 SDK). As a result, some PS5 exclusive game titles effectively utilize Primitive Shader.
　In my sense, Primitive Shader is used in the first party title for PS5 as it is, so I think that the number of usage cases of Mesh Shader is exceeded. Compared to that, Mesh Shader has become an industry standard, but it seems that there are few examples of active use of Mesh Shader in recent game works.

 

[iroboto]

This is not the same hardware but this is the same goal. DX12 is jut an API, this is just software. There is a reason AMD mesh shader is very slow on RDNA 2 and RDNA 3 GPU.

Oh. You’re saying Mesh Shader is emulated on RDNA2 and 3

 

[chris1515]

Oh. You’re saying Mesh Shader is emulated on RDNA2 and 3

Emulation no but DX12 is just an abstraction layer, the hardware work differently. There is a reason devs use intrinsics or do some test using shader assembly on consoles.

 

[iroboto]

Emulation no but DX12 is just an abstraction layer, the hardware work differently. There is a reason devs use intrinsics or do some test using shader assembly on consoles.

No. All developers have to know if the feature is supported fully or not and the tier level of support.
Nvidia made a hammer drill
AMD made a regular drill.

Thr CTO was asked now that you need a hammer drill by specification will you deprecate the regular drill? His answer is no, we took our drill and added additional components to support hammer drilling. If you turn off the hammer mode it still operates as a regular drill.

Primitive shaders can be mesh shaders. Because mesh is the super set. But some mesh shaders cannot be primitive shaders.

You need the hardware support for it.

 

[Globalisateur]

No. All developers have to know if the feature is supported fully or not and the tier level of support.
Nvidia made a hammer drill
AMD made a regular drill.

Thr CTO was asked now that you need a hammer drill by specification will you deprecate the regular drill? His answer is no, we took our drill and added additional components to support hammer drilling. If you turn off the hammer mode it still operates as a regular drill.

Primitive shaders can be mesh shaders. Because mesh is the super set. But some mesh shaders cannot be primitive shaders.

You need the hardware support for it.

Regardless this is 95% semantic and PR. But Mesh shaders (on Xbox) is just an API and always has being. There is no hardware for that on RDNA2 GPUs. You can search for it in any source codes, commits etc, you'll never find it. The only thing you'll find is primitive shaders.

 

[iroboto]

Regardless this is 95% semantic and PR. But Mesh shaders (on Xbox) is just an API and always has being. There is no hardware for that on RDNA2 GPUs. You can search for it in any source codes, commits etc, you'll never find it. The only thing you'll find is primitive shaders.

(from the guy writing the Vulcan mesh shader extension)

Notes about hardware support:
Navi 10 and Navi 12 as well as Navi 14 do not contain some features like per-primitive outputs that make it impossible to do mesh shaders on these GPUs.

What is NGG and shader culling on AMD RDNA GPUs?

NGG (Next Generation Geometry) is the technology that is responsible for any vertex and geometry processing in AMD RDNA GPUs. I decided to do a write-up about my experience implementing it in RADV, which is the Vulkan driver used by many Linux systems, including the Steam Deck. I will also talk...

timur.hu

 

[function]

Regardless this is 95% semantic and PR. But Mesh shaders (on Xbox) is just an API and always has being. There is no hardware for that on RDNA2 GPUs. You can search for it in any source codes, commits etc, you'll never find it. The only thing you'll find is primitive shaders.

This doesn't mean that every AMD GPU with NGG (Next Generation Geometry) and that runs Primitive Shader has the necessary features to support Mesh Shader.

According to this developers blog on how Mesh Shaders are supported in the AMD driver, NGG (Next Generation Geometry) has additional capabilities for RDNA2:

On RDNA2 and newer, per-primitive output attributes are also supported.

This is necessary for Mesh Shaders. RDNA 2 and Series X/S have additional functionality that allows it to support the Mesh Shader API. RDNA 2 supports everything that RDNA 1 does, and more. The hardware is improved over pre-RDNA 2.

(from the guy writing the Vulcan mesh shader extension)

Notes about hardware support:
Navi 10 and Navi 12 as well as Navi 14 do not contain some features like per-primitive outputs that make it impossible to do mesh shaders on these GPUs.

What is NGG and shader culling on AMD RDNA GPUs?

NGG (Next Generation Geometry) is the technology that is responsible for any vertex and geometry processing in AMD RDNA GPUs. I decided to do a write-up about my experience implementing it in RADV, which is the Vulkan driver used by many Linux systems, including the Steam Deck. I will also talk...

timur.hu

Haha, different page from the same dude. Suppose there's only so many people doing the Vulcan Mesh Shader extension and blogging about it ...

 

[Globalisateur]

(from the guy writing the Vulcan mesh shader extension)

Notes about hardware support:
Navi 10 and Navi 12 as well as Navi 14 do not contain some features like per-primitive outputs that make it impossible to do mesh shaders on these GPUs.

What is NGG and shader culling on AMD RDNA GPUs?

NGG (Next Generation Geometry) is the technology that is responsible for any vertex and geometry processing in AMD RDNA GPUs. I decided to do a write-up about my experience implementing it in RADV, which is the Vulkan driver used by many Linux systems, including the Steam Deck. I will also talk...

timur.hu

NGG is primitive shaders. It's indeed deactivated or partially working for various reasons on some AMD RDNA GPUs. But they are working very well on PS5:

 

[iroboto]

NGG is primitive shaders. It's indeed deactivated or partially working for various reasons on some AMD RDNA GPUs. But they are working very well on PS5:

They have NGG and primitive shaders on Navi 10 too. You are blurring the waters here. The level of support was insufficient to support mesh shader so additional features has to be added to NGG to support mesh shaders, this started in Navi 20.

That does not mean the core of NGG couldn’t do what mesh shaders do. Thus the CTO is not wrong that they just reimplemented what they did with NGG for mesh shaders, but it is wrong to suggest they are the same. Mesh is the superset, at least from type one defined by directX with amplification shaders over task shaders.

 

[mr magoo]

RDNA 9.

Math checks. Upvote.

 

[Karamazov]

so since the guy saying PS5 pro coming 2024 was right about the PS earbuds and streaming portable machine, can we safely say he's right about PS5 pro now ?

 

[Globalisateur]

so since the guy saying PS5 pro coming 2024 was right about the PS earbuds and streaming portable machine, can we safely say he's right about PS5 pro now ?

I think he'll give more details about the specs soon or once the new model with disc addon will be announced.