Phil Spencer Interview: Redfall Reviews, Activision Deal - Kinda Funny Xcast Ep. 137

[Shortbread]

Open, honest, and somewhat shocking answers from Phil during the interview (his answer to the seventh question, is very telling on how Microsoft views it's current position in the console space).

Stolen from Era...

First question was an update about the CMA stuff --

We've gotten 9 approvals and working on 14 more, we've been working with CMA all year long and we plan to still appeal to make it happen

Second question: Why didn't they delay Redfall?

TLDR was that when it comes to delaying stuff there's multiple questions that need to get answered before them agreeing on delaying games

Third question: What do you mean that you're *disappointed* in Redfall? And what extend do you hope that you can make Redfall better down the road? --

On the review scores, we do mock reviews and Redfall got double digits from our mock reviews so the reviews it actually got are much lower. We never thought it'd review in the low 60s. Redfall is much lower than our internal metrics. Arkane is taking the internal feedback and committing to getting the 60fps out along with working on the game in general. I acknowledge and take responsibility for needing to launching the game cause it needs to be great since its 70 dollars. I understand people calling for my firing since I get way overpaid, we're committed though to working on Redfall. We want to support the team, the creative ambitions of the team and committed to the players

Fourth question: What is the balance of you showing something that you know is going to be years down the road and providing updates of that, what are the lessons learned from the last Showcase?

We have to be transparent of what we're showing so people committed to our platform know what they're getting and it has to get better. I'm not pointing at anybody but myself. Transparency in what we're building, what it's gonna look like and what our future is gonna be, and it drives me crazy when our communication is sometimes confusing or misleading regarding what our products are gonna be. That being said, and this is when it comes to the showcases, I'm very enthusiastic about it. We're announcing things people haven't seen, we're giving updates on things people have seen and what gets me excited is that things are finally lining up after some of the slowdowns from COVID. I can now see games are coming every quarter that surprising and will delight our customers. We still have to deliver on the quality. We're not trying to deliver one game to rule them all, so not every game will be for everyone. The diversity of what we build will hopefully be a strength and we have to deliver on the quality by showing gameplay and putting great games in the hands of our players.

Fifth comment/response: We're tired of hearing "we have to wait for next year for Xbox to succeed"

Phil comments on this year starting well with Hi-Fi Rush, Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition and Minecraft Legends doing well in Japan. He specifically states though that he's happy with the builds he's been seeing for Starfield, Avowed, Hellblade 2 but he gets it and understands people's frustrations. Until we're smiling from playing their games, he totally gets that people won't be excited or happy when it comes to Xbox games

Sixth Question: What is the formal process of when something like Redfall doesn't land? What is the "what went wrong" post mortem process?

When we acquire studios, there's games that are in development and then there's things that are early in development and I think we need to approve on engaging on games that are midway through production when they become a part of Xbox. And I think there's different expectations when teams become First Party and there's a different perception when these teams become First Parties. We didn't a good job early on when it comes to really helping them understand what it means to become apart of Xbox, use some of our internal resources and kind of help them. We kind of left them to work on that game, they're a talented team and we love that team, I still do, and I'd totally bet on them to make another great game. I think we can engage earlier with our different studios. It's different when a creative is committed already on a game but thinking of our process regarding assistance, we can do a better job. We've done a better job with Starfield since it was earlier on in production, so that made it easier for us to make sure we're shipping a quality experience. We've should've been there earlier. It's an Unreal game and we have a bunch of teams who have worked on Unreal, and we were a little late on getting them to help. We didn't do that, it's not an excuse. So when the 60fps issue came up, we had people diving in such as The Coalition, but that was a plan that had to be in last Fall. I take that as learning as painful as that is.
Click to shrink...

Seventh Question: Do you think you've put too much focus on the PC side and not given the console side of things as much love as it deserves?

We're still focused on making the console focus better. I will say, we have a different vision, Parris talked about it. We want Xbox to be something that people who buy our consoles can feel like members of a full ecosystem. We're fully committed to that. We're not in the business of "out-consoling Sony or Nintendo", there's not a win or solution for us. I know that will upset people but that's the truth. When you're 3rd place and your competition is as strong as they are, our vision is that anybody who's on our console is invested in our platform and feels like a member of a massive ecosystem. It's not true that if we go up and build great games, that you'll see console shares go up massively. We lost the biggest console generation there is to lose so when we build on Xbox, we want it to feel awesome. So if we focused on great games, that doesn't mean we'll win the console race. When people walk into a store, they're already in 1 out of the 3 ecosystems, the continuity from generation to generation is so strong that there is no world where something like Starfield is a 11/10 and it'll lead people selling their consoles. People want to play with their friends regardless of where they are. We'll stay focused on making our console experience awesome. I know people want us to be a better green version of the blue guys, we have to do our thing with how we build our games, GamePass and XCloud.

Eighth Question: Tell us something positive!

I love games ahead of us and playing games on Gamepass. Ravenlok's coming, Benedict Fox is here, one of the things I'm excited is about is the ROG Ally. People are getting another device to play their games on! The gaming space has never been more diverse than it is now and it's an honor to be apart of it

 

[iroboto]

Yup. The realities of it. Doesn’t matter you knock it out of the park once or twice people won’t come regardless. They would need a pipeline of games for 2 generations of bangers for people to consider switching. The lock in is too hard.

 

[Shortbread]

Yup. The realities of it. Doesn’t matter you knock it out of the park once or twice people won’t come regardless. They would need a pipeline of games for 2 generations of bangers for people to consider switching. The lock in is too hard.

I believe if Sony didn't include backwards-compatibility this time around with PS5, that Microsoft could have dented PS5 sales greatly. Sony finally recognizing that BC was important on carrying over PS users to the next-generation and their ego-system of games/services, was the smartest move they could have done for PS5 and Sony as a whole.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Their goal should be getting a stable amount of releases from their studios out in a consistent amount of time. This would require a lot of structural reconfiguring with their teams but it would be worth it.

Trying to "beat" Sony in areas they are clearly strong in won't work. Especially if most of your focus is taken away from outside of the console space focusing on cloud, services and trying to tangle with bigger players.

 

[Malo]

Great interview actually, listened to it all. Phil seems get open about the Xbox business.

 

[B-Nice]

Same song, different day!

The very definition of something or other.

 

[eastmen]

Their goal should be getting a stable amount of releases from their studios out in a consistent amount of time. This would require a lot of structural reconfiguring with their teams but it would be worth it.

Trying to "beat" Sony in areas they are clearly strong in won't work. Especially if most of your focus is taken away from outside of the console space focusing on cloud, services and trying to tangle with bigger players.

That wouldn't really move the needle. Sony continues to buy up studios / exclusivity / additional content , just having a similar number of studios as sony wont actually do anything because even if you tie or slightly out pace their first party titles there are exclusives that exist simply because of install base. Every single exclusivity deal they work out or extra content deal they work out has to in the contract price in the massive difference in install base. Sony sold what a 120m last gen vs MS's 60 ? Nintendo is over a 120m and still going ? So if MS wanted the new FF exclusive they have to pay for the difference in install base while sony doesn't. Sure MS can do that on a case by case basis but will still loose to sony in scale. That is before we even get into defacto exclusivity because MS's install base is almost non existent in places like Japan.

This is exactly why MS has been trying to buy successful studios and buy larger companies with a lot of studios.

 

[SmooTh]

And then they deny offer for games/sequels/new ip because it won't be their IP or for whatever reason.

 

[Inuhanyou]

One thing I absolutely hate about this interview is this silly defeatist attitude Phil puts up in order to defend the acquisitions they are trying to do, as if buying up third parties publishers is the only thing they can do. When it's merely a bandage for a problem they have been suffering from for a long time.

No one should believe that when a ton of these silly rookie mistakes MS is doing is their own fault and no one else's. It's not Sonys success in the video game market which forced MS to launch redfall like this and not put out a single big game for the past 18 months. It's just not the case.

MS has the capability to make good games, but their teams are not organized enough to put them out beyond Forza and gears at a stable and consistent rate. Especially with 343 being so mismanaged as it is. The smaller games are great but that shouldent be all there is.

 

[iroboto]

One thing I absolutely hate about this interview is this silly defeatist attitude Phil puts up in order to defend the acquisitions they are trying to do, as if buying up third parties games is the only thing they can do. When it's merely a bandage for a problem they have been suffering from for a long time.

It's easy to hate on a company that is struggling you know what I mean? Why can't you be more like X or Y. It's not really that straight forward. And there isn't only 1 path to success. Sony has done it their way. Nintendo theirs. MS is trying to do it their way and the restrictions placed on them is what puts them into this position. It's a bit like people asking AMD to produce something that is equivalent or better than Nvidia, after following what they do. They're just behind you know what I mean, they didn't put their resources there, and the only way to catch up time, is to buy it. And people don't want them to.

 

[Globalisateur]

When in doubt, just blame all of it on Don Mattrick!

 

[Nesh]

It's easy to hate on a company that is struggling you know what I mean? Why can't you be more like X or Y. It's not really that straight forward. And there isn't only 1 path to success. Sony has done it their way. Nintendo theirs. MS is trying to do it their way and the restrictions placed on them is what puts them into this position. It's a bit like people asking AMD to produce something that is equivalent or better than Nvidia, after following what they do. They're just behind you know what I mean, they didn't put their resources there, and the only way to catch up time, is to buy it. And people don't want them to.

I dont see any restrictions that prevented MS all these years. They have the hardware and the resources and the studios and are allowed to buy more as they have done. The so called restriction isnt really a restriction that prevented them from outputting good games all these years. Redfall wouldnt have been different with or without MS acquiring ABK. Some companies are just incompetent.

 

[Nesh]

That wouldn't really move the needle. Sony continues to buy up studios / exclusivity / additional content , just having a similar number of studios as sony wont actually do anything because even if you tie or slightly out pace their first party titles there are exclusives that exist simply because of install base. Every single exclusivity deal they work out or extra content deal they work out has to in the contract price in the massive difference in install base. Sony sold what a 120m last gen vs MS's 60 ? Nintendo is over a 120m and still going ? So if MS wanted the new FF exclusive they have to pay for the difference in install base while sony doesn't. Sure MS can do that on a case by case basis but will still loose to sony in scale. That is before we even get into defacto exclusivity because MS's install base is almost non existent in places like Japan.

This is exactly why MS has been trying to buy successful studios and buy larger companies with a lot of studios

I would like to remind you that MS bought Zenimax which is a group of.....9 Studios with great portfolio and great track record.
MS isnt failing only in numbers in relation to competition. They are failing also in absolutes.

 

[iroboto]

I dont see any restrictions that prevented MS all these years. They have the hardware and the resources and the studios and are allowed to buy more as they have done. The so called restriction isnt really a restriction that prevented them from outputting good games all these years. Redfall wouldnt have been different with or without MS acquiring ABK. Some companies are just incompetent.

They're behind Nintendo in making games for 20 years and PlayStation by 10.
They aren't a manufacturing company.
They're not a dedicated gaming company like Nintendo nor does it represent the majority of MS" income like it does for Playstation.
They don't have years of making music or movies.
Neither Nintendo or Sony have PC heritage that they must support.

most importantly, MS is an enterprise company.
They sell goods and generate nearly 100% of their profits from enterprise software and licensing and B2B. Most of their go to market strategy is licensing.

Home consoles are consumer goods. Nintendo and Sony are both consumer focused companies. Procurement, Provisioning, and go to market is very different.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Sure MS can do that on a case by case basis but will still loose to sony in scale. That is before we even get into defacto exclusivity because MS's install base is almost non existent in places like Japan.

This is exactly why MS has been trying to buy successful studios and buy larger companies with a lot of studios.

But MS has billions(being a trillion dollar company) that they can spend on getting exclusives of their own, it just seems they don't want to. Remember the interview that came out a year ago where MS were offered Marvel's Spider-man and decided not to take it? Remember the E3 2013 show where they came out with DRM. Remember all the studio buyouts but Xbox have yet to show anything substantial with these new AAA studios? Remember E3 2014/15? Remember Xbox Series X launch?

Xbox should have quality games coming out in droves with all the acquisitions they have done, yet all Xbox console gamers have got since 2013 have been mostly utterly mediocre games on the console. I thought the interview was really telling. He said he gets paid too much for what he does. I agree. Get rid and replace with someone else that's more competent.

He said Xbox is in third place behind PS and Nintendo but he hasn't done anything since he took over that would improve the console's ability to compete with the other consoles. He runs the company like he doesn't care imo. He might have cared at one point but he doesn't care now. He is supposed to be the head of Xbox yet he has let down the console's gamers down imo.

Sure Xbox is more than just consoles, but consoles is the reason MS has decided to push into the gaming market. Yes, they made games before the OG Xbox came out but with the success of the Xbox360, they decided to push into the market. Xbox One was supposed to be the swan song for the company following the success of the Xbox360, yet because they couldn't provide good to great first party games regularly continuing with that trend this generation and then blaming Sony for spending money on exclusives etc. is very disingenuous.

Phil mentions that build great games on the console will not sell consoles. Such BS imo. Sony provided that selling great games will sell consoles. They did that with the PS3 and The Last of Us and the same with PS4 and now PS5 where they provided great games which helped sell the consoles.

Gary is a brown nose kisser imo.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If Redfall scored higher on their internal tests then their entire evaluation process is broken. The idea that this was a $70 USD game is insane. Also they didn’t jump in and make sure they were getting full support from internal technical resources until very late. So they never identified that the game was bad so they didn’t help them out until it was too late. There’s just something wrong with the Xbox organization. Halo Infinite was an absolute trash fire. I know some people defend it, but the broad reaction was underwhelming. It didn’t have all of the signs of a big AAA title (big budget cutscenes, variety in environments, technical showcase etc). They seem very happy to repeatedly over promises and under deliver. And the worst part is they don’t even seem to be aware that their games are underwhelming until the reviews hit.

They need to make sure their internal studios set a high bar so they can attract talent. That should mean canceling projects that are off the rails. A consumer should see published by Microsoft as a sign of a reasonably high chance of quality.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@iroboto Microsoft has been in the console business for over 20 years. They should know what they’re doing by now. They’re also a software company. Producing software technology to make games should be the easy part. They are one of the largest software companies in the world, and one of the oldest. Oddly they seem to be much better at making console hardware than software.

 

[iroboto]

@iroboto Microsoft has been in the console business for over 20 years. They should know what they’re doing by now. They’re also a software company. Producing software technology to make games should be the easy part. They are one of the largest software companies in the world, and one of the oldest. Oddly they seem to be much better at making console hardware than software.

I don't disagree, but that wasn't what I was debating. MS saying they can't unseat entrenched competitors is the point I'm getting at, I think Phil's response is valid in that sense. Buying up big properties is just one of the methods they can leverage. They've been very successful with the integration of Minecraft. There's no reason they can do it again. It's going to require a lot more work.

Making video games and making applications are miles apart =P

MS core strength is building platforms, whether it be Windows or Office etc. Even in the console space, platform wise Xbox is way ahead of their competitors. Making content appears to be a struggle for them.

 

[Nesh]

They're behind Nintendo in making games for 20 years and PlayStation by 10.
They aren't a manufacturing company.
They're not a dedicated gaming company like Nintendo nor does it represent the majority of MS" income like it does for Playstation.
They don't have years of making music or movies.
Neither Nintendo or Sony have PC heritage that they must support.

most importantly, MS is an enterprise company.
They sell goods and generate nearly 100% of their profits from enterprise software and licensing and B2B. Most of their go to market strategy is licensing.

Home consoles are consumer goods. Nintendo and Sony are both consumer focused companies. Procurement, Provisioning, and go to market is very different.

MS is hires the greatest minds in the world and makes investments that are inconceivable by most companies.
Their business is mature, and the quality and price of XBOX Series X and S is cream of the crop. So being a manufacturing company or not is proven irrelevant.
Their studios are experienced dedicated gaming studios and MS has the resources, network, knowledge and technical know how of how software works and reach in every aspect of the gaming industry.
MS had and has more knowledge, reach and far reaching networks with any computing related industry than Sony and Nintendo can ever imagine
I have no idea what movies and music have to do with anything.
MS has a super healthy current ratio which is far above than Sony's whose current ration is unhealthy. It is far larger than Sony and Nintendo combined.

Your arguments sound more like excuses than reasons of MS's failures.

 

[chris1515]

Yup. The realities of it. Doesn’t matter you knock it out of the park once or twice people won’t come regardless. They would need a pipeline of games for 2 generations of bangers for people to consider switching. The lock in is too hard.

This is a little more difficult than this they need to release better game than Sony and part of the game on the same genre than Sony but superior to a ND or Sony Santa Monica game. This is not only a matter of digital library but you must make people want to miss the next ND or Sony Santa Monica games. They have a hard job