Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[iroboto]

So I guess the advantage to this is that Xbox gets to use the full bandwidth but only at certain times, whereas PS5 has consistent bandwidth but can only use a smaller total amount?

I can see how that might give devs some headaches on the same level as split ram despite not being the same thing. It's still a balancing act in certain ways to make sure everything gets what it needs.

On the other hand MS doing it in this particular fashion had advantages in being able to feed it's bigger GPU in the optimal scenario

It’s not ideal, saved them some money but likely was not the best move for them in the long run. As things continue to grow in size and complexity later in the generation, this it’s a potential point that could hurt them in keeping up with ps5.

On the other hand nothing may crop up either. The expectation is that we will return to 30fps as the generation goes on and continues to push the limits of graphics. That would reduce pressure on bandwidth and increase pressure on compute.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It’s not ideal, saved them some money but likely was not the best move for them in the long run. As things continue to grow in size and complexity later in the generation, this it’s a potential point that could hurt them in keeping up with ps5.

On the other hand nothing may crop up either. The expectation is that we will return to 30fps as the generation goes on and continues to push the limits of graphics. That would reduce pressure on bandwidth and increase pressure on compute.

The dream would be for devs to optimize for 60fps at the design level and add effects for optional 30fps modes after but

I mean, the zen 2 cores in consoles are definitely not the strongest things out there at this point in time, but they are seachange compared to what we've been stuck with since say 2005 in general scenarios

 

[dobwal]

The cache scrubber are linked to the coherency engine inside the I/O complex.

Its make sense because scrubbing the cache makes flushing more bandwidth efficient. Flushing cache data to main memory is helpful in making sure all clients have access to the same data in an effort to maintain coherency. Cache scrubbers can make maintaining coherency cheaper.

 

[chris1515]

Its make sense because scrubbing the cache makes flushing more bandwidth efficient. Flushing cache data to main memory is helpful in making sure all clients have access to the same data in an effort to maintain coherency. Cache scrubbers can make maintaining coherency cheaper.

I know but some mechanism of cache invalidation inside GPU. Developer don't need to flush the cache all the time. I am curious to know why Sony need to add something about coherency linked specifically to the fact they use a SSD and linked to I/O. Maybe it is more granular?

 

[Globalisateur]

I agree with everything but generally contention is not that big a deal in this situation. CPU makes a call for memory the GPU over ridden for priority and this will happen for both ps5 and XSX. The only difference being that ps5 will get the cpu request at the hypothetical 480GB/s vs the slower request of hypothetical 336GB/s.

Neither machine have split pools to call 2 separate requests and serve 2 separate systems simultaneously.

In this sense I don’t see how there would be any additional bandwidth losses that could be calculated when so much is loss just due to read/write requests or just general CPU contention. The obvious challenge is footprint, but 6GB and 10GB is quite spacious compared to the PC GPUs that did it back then.

No I don't think you understand it. This is a problem on top of memory contention (here caused by CPU). memory contention (say if the CPU eats 20GB/s it actuallys takes 40GB/s from total bandwidth) exists on both consoles.

But this is another problem only seen on XSX, not PS5. Basically using the slowest pool of memory (whether by CPU or GPU) will inevitably reduce total available bandwidth (the 560GB/s figure) and that's on top of the loss from the aformentionned memory contention.

But in the vast majority of cases this shouldn't make a big difference (in total available bandwith) if developers know how to deal with it and use carefully the slow pool of memory.

 

[iroboto]

But this is another problem only seen on XSX, not PS5. Basically using the slowest pool of memory (whether by CPU or GPU) will inevitably reduce total available bandwidth (the 560GB/s figure) and that's on top of the loss from the aformentionned memory contention.

I realize that. Of which I agree with. Alternating between fast and slow pools over the course of the second will ultimately result in a lower average bandwidth. That is understood. But simple things like alternation between read and writes could also kill your effective bandwidth. We have little to no way of knowing how much is being affected here. It’s not a constant amount either.
336GB is still very generous amount of bandwidth for CPU.

 

[PSman1700]

Really great explanation!

And a whole lot different than the explanations some others have about the feature lol. Anything can sound very intresting using the right words i guess.

 

[iroboto]

The dream would be for devs to optimize for 60fps at the design level and add effects for optional 30fps modes after but

I mean, the zen 2 cores in consoles are definitely not the strongest things out there at this point in time, but they are seachange compared to what we've been stuck with since say 2005 in general scenarios

Halving the frame rate is a massive jump in graphics. If the standard set to even begin rendering is 6ms you only have 10ms to make the graphics look good. But with 33ms you have 26ms remaining to look good. It’s going to be a significant jump when we hit the eventual limits of 60fps games. Reducing resolution will only take you so far.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Halving the frame rate is a massive jump in graphics. If the standard set to even begin rendering is 6ms you only have 10ms to make the graphics look good. But with 33ms you have 26ms remaining to look good. It’s going to be a significant jump when we hit the eventual limits of 60fps games. Reducing resolution will only take you so far.

To be clear I'm not against 30fps games or anything...but I feel like 60 is more than possible to be a lot more common than it usually is even if some games will inevitably be 30 by pushing tons of things that are CPU limited. The current consoles have specs that can give "good enough" visuals and scale without having to drop the fps even if it takes more effort to optimize their game design around it.

Well. If games of a scope like horizon are possible at 60 with really great iq I think that's a good starting point.

Even for potentially busy and populated games. Like the next GTA for example is gonna be a jump from a game created on PS3 and 360. Even if they go for a 60fps target and cut their ceiling on what they can do down , what they come up with is still gonna be a clear generation ahead of what gta5 was which is still impressive today.

I feel like with the current machines games are limited a lot more by dev resources and time rather than what the hardware will allow for

 

[iroboto]

To be clear I'm not against 30fps games or anything...but I feel like 60 is more than possible to be a lot more common than it usually is even if some games will inevitably be 30 by pushing tons of things that are CPU limited. The current consoles have specs that can give "good enough" visuals and scale without having to drop the fps even if it takes more effort to optimize their game design around it.

Well. If games of a scope like horizon are possible at 60 with really great iq I think that's a good starting point.

Even for potentially busy and populated games. Like the next GTA for example is gonna be a jump from a game created on PS3 and 360. Even if they go for a 60fps target and cut their ceiling on what they can do down , what they come up with is still gonna be a clear generation ahead of what gta5 was which is still impressive today.

For sure.
I think because the consoles cannot be upgraded, and yet there is a push to break graphical barriers, the only option is to find more processing time which means increasing frame time.

I think certain games will always be 60 like call of duty. And some games will have no problems dropping down further like Plagues Tale.

We will get a mix, but I’m generally not expecting 60fps games to be able to compete with 30fps ones especially when 30fps makes RT possible on consoles, 60fps is perhaps a touch too tight.

 

[Remij]

It's all about the ease of use from the developer perspective.

With the type of high quality AAA budget games that Sony is known for, developer tools and ease of use are paramount to ensuring that development is as streamlined as possible and the less they need to worry about the technical details the more they can focus on creating top tier products.

They learned some HARD lessons from the PS3.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It's all about the ease of use from the developer perspective.

With the type of high quality AAA budget games that Sony is known for, developer tools and ease of use are paramount to ensuring that development is as streamlined as possible and the less they need to worry about the technical details the more they can focus on creating top tier products.

They learned some HARD lessons from the PS3.

It essentially killed the "specialized console"..well Nintendo tried one more time with the Wii u having like 3 Wii CPUs in there right?

 

[Remij]

It essentially killed the "specialized console"..well Nintendo tried one more time with the Wii u having like 3 Wii CPUs in there right?

Yea.. I'll always miss that. To me it was much more interesting when the platforms were made with proprietary hardware which often excelled at very specific tasks.

But it's 100000% understandable where everything settled. Sony also understandably has a bit more freedom than MS does with their architecture as they have a singular platform whereas MS always has to consider Windows and DirectX.

There's pros and cons to both of course.

 

[chris1515]

https://giant.gfycat.com/AnyAbsoluteIcterinewarbler.mp4

Forspoken load time on PC fast

 

[chris1515]

Saw @Dictator comment, stutter horrible.

 

[BRiT]

I'm watching a stream of a fresh install and play on PC and yikes, so much cringe all over the place.

 

[chris1515]

PC gamer can skip the logos, this is great with B button on a Xbox gamepad or clicking the right button of the mouse.

 

[chris1515]

Forspoken on a PCIE 5 SSD

 

[fehu]

Oh my god how much I already hate her
Look! A bear eating prey! It must be friendly maybe I'll cuddle it a little.
Anyway, it's me or this doesn't show many advantages on directstorage?

 

[pjbliverpool]

Anyway, it's me or this doesn't show many advantages on directstorage?

Load times are incredibly fast on PC. Seemingly faster than PS5 with the right hardware. How much of that is down to DirectStorage and how much is simply down to good game design and fast hardware is anyones guess. It's certainly a great showing for the first DirectStorage game regardless though.