Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[chris1515]

Oh look, another commentary from a dev who is hocking a platform.

You're now on the ignore list, because all you're apparently capable of (re)posting is marketing drivel. Fanboy indeed.

This is better than being ignorant. This is not a hocking of a platform. The guy was just showing an on rail sequence and how the full level was loaded. He just pause the game on the devkit and move the camera into the level. This is possible to do exactly the same thing on Xbox and soon PC and with faster loading for this platform but hey this is you the fanboy you have a problem because the game is on PS5 but it could have been on Xbox or soon PC.

You don't even think two seconds if you are able to nearly fully replace the RAM content in one to two seconds or a little bit longer on Xbox maybe 3 to 4 seconds you can fully load your level and after the CPU not a weak Jaguar does it job setup the new level. And this is exactly what it is done here or on future title. Do this type of things is not an exclusivity of PS5, it can be done on Xbox Series.

And we don't even need to talk about portals. In Spiderman PS5 loading from a save takes a little bit over one second and you can control your character This is the same on Xbox just a bit longer because the SSD slower.

Again people talk about decompressing and so on on CPU, all this things on are done by hardware block or ARM processor on PS5 and Xbox Seires. The only litttle things Xbox doesn't do is use one ARM processor to do memory management. This is done on Zen 2 CPU but out of this, this exactly the same.

On PC there is powerful GPU and the decompressing job will be done there and CPU are more powerful than on console. The hardware was there for years it was just a problem of I/O software stack and some SSD are faster than PS5 SSD (6 and 7 GB/s) and when PCIE 5 arrive it will be much faster than on consoles.

EDIT: And future PC GPU will have hardware decompressor block too like this no GPU power will be use on decompression.

 

[goonergaz]

I don’t even understand the argument lol

The SSD is great but not that great?

Yes it can load a whole game in 2 seconds but that’s not really something to celebrate as a game changer?

Is the implication that Sony didn’t go to devs and seek what the biggest issue was and worked to resolve that issue?

Are we saying in a couple of years when the shackles are gone games will not change in any significant way?

 

[Inuhanyou]

There's a lot of nuance in all this. PS5 SSD is super, no doubt, but it doesn't naturally make all the techniques that the TT guy was talking about obsolete.

For example, creating little special stages using a minimum of memory helps the Megadrive because of cart sizes. It helps PS1 because of RAM and loading times. And it'll help the PS5 for the same reasons - even if the impact in seconds is smaller than it would be for a HDD or DVD.

Likewise, if you're in an on rails section, why wouldn't you use the predictability in what you can discard and what you'll need to inform your data transfers? I'll bet a tenner that Insomniac aren't throwing out all their battle tested data transfer techniques just because the PS5 SSD is great. These technologies aren't mutually exclusive, they stack.

I would be astounded if some of the techniques Jon Burton is talking about aren't used in, and any other technically competent game on any platform, or perhaps even R&C itself. Old timers that know about banging on registers know the basics of how this stuff all more or less works even now.

Oh, and setting up the stage that you're about to enter can take a little while too - lots of variables to initialise and ... pointers to set and ... things.

TL : DR - a good technique applicable to fundamentals that still influence the industry is never truly obsolete!

Thank for clarification. I knew all that in theory but it's nice to get a breakdown from pros

I didn't meant to suggest techniques to save performance would just no longer exists but that the SSD in next gen becoming baseline is a very significant advantage for devs compared to last gen and insomniac are devs who are actually taking advantage of that.

My argument is mainly refuting those who say the console manufacturers focusing on ssd(Sony in particular) isn't a big deal in terms of game advancement because there are streaming techniques out there that have been done for a long time.

GTA 3 and jak 2 had large open worlds on ps2 clearly but they were held back by having to really optimize memory management.

And spiderman on PS4(just as an example for open world games on last gen) had to be specifically configured so that a huge amount of memory was set aside just for cache of assets, to the detriment of putting that ram into the actual game itself.

The PS5, series consoles and PC with direct storage eventually becoming baseline means the SSDs can take the brunt of what used to be something that had to be done in memory and thus making memory usage in games much more efficient now and able to be used in games.

Just the fact that sucker punch was able to make their cutscenes real time for the ghost of Tsushima PS5 version instead of having to make them videos is already a mind blowing thing to me, let alone what ratchet and clank is doing. Imagining what might be possible once last gen is fully dropped is enticing and shouldent be downplayed

 

[chris1515]

Thank for clarification. I knew all that in theory but it's nice to get a breakdown from pros

I didn't meant to suggest techniques to save performance would just no longer exists but that the SSD in next gen becoming baseline is a very significant advantage for devs compared to last gen and insomniac are devs who are actually taking advantage of that.

My argument is mainly refuting those who say the console manufacturers focusing on ssd(Sony in particular) isn't a big deal in terms of game advancement because there are streaming techniques out there that have been done for a long time.

GTA 3 and jak 2 had large open worlds on ps2 clearly but they were held back by having to really optimize memory management.

And spiderman on PS4(just as an example for open world games on last gen) had to be specifically configured so that a huge amount of memory was set aside just for cache of assets, to the detriment of putting that ram into the actual game itself.

The PS5, series consoles and PC with direct storage eventually becoming baseline means the SSDs can take the brunt of what used to be something that had to be done in memory and thus making memory usage in games much more efficient now and able to be used in games.

Just the fact that sucker punch was able to make their cutscenes real time for the ghost of Tsushima PS5 version instead of having to make them videos is already a mind blowing thing to me, let alone what ratchet and clank is doing. Imagining what might be possible once last gen is fully dropped is enticing and shouldent be downplayed

On consumer side, the advantage is faster loading time and better assets.

On Road to PS5, Cerny talked mostly about advantage for devs. They simply don't need to do the level design around streaming contraint. Do they need to fully load a level into an on rail sequence this is not useful from a gamer point of view but they can use the standard level loading for devs an no need to prepare specifically the data or do special trick. It means this time lost in such task can be use in another task.

Basically NVME SSD bruteforce streaming and loading.

 

[function]

Thank for clarification. I knew all that in theory but it's nice to get a breakdown from pros

Just wanted to make it clear that I'm not a pro (incase I was wrongly giving that impression)! I muck about with Unreal (previously Unity) for fun, but I know a couple of folks who are pros and they're very positive about all this stuff.

I didn't meant to suggest techniques to save performance would just no longer exists but that the SSD in next gen becoming baseline is a very significant advantage for devs compared to last gen and insomniac are devs who are actually taking advantage of that.

My argument is mainly refuting those who say the console manufacturers focusing on ssd(Sony in particular) isn't a big deal in terms of game advancement because there are streaming techniques out there that have been done for a long time.

GTA 3 and jak 2 had large open worlds on ps2 clearly but they were held back by having to really optimize memory management.

And spiderman on PS4(just as an example for open world games on last gen) had to be specifically configured so that a huge amount of memory was set aside just for cache of assets, to the detriment of putting that ram into the actual game itself.

Definitely! It also frees up the need for duplicating data to reduce seeks times for the HDD head when streaming. So you (should) now get smaller installs, and have no need to worry about optimising data layout on the drive. I've been reading about the need to optimise physical layout on a drive and sometimes duplicate data for like 20 years or something (in truth was probably an issue since the PC-Engine CD rom!).

The PS5, series consoles and PC with direct storage eventually becoming baseline means the SSDs can take the brunt of what used to be something that had to be done in memory and thus making memory usage in games much more efficient now and able to be used in games.

Yeah, and with much higher BW, being able to make hundreds of read requests at once with somewhat less concern about order, and to have much lower latency, I think it will mean engines can realistically automate things that would need to have been hand tuned and be more restrictive before.

That's one of the things that Nanite tries to do - it moves polygon memory budget more towards being an engine concern than an artist or level designer one. The engine takes more responsibility for rendering load due to polygons and for memory footprint due to polygons.

Naturally, the faster your storage (BW, IOPs, latency and all that jaz) the better this will work and the more invisible this process becomes to the end user, even with a massive boost in quality.

Just the fact that sucker punch was able to make their cutscenes real time for the ghost of Tsushima PS5 version instead of having to make them videos is already a mind blowing thing to me, let alone what ratchet and clank is doing. Imagining what might be possible once last gen is fully dropped is enticing and shouldent be downplayed

Yeah, definitely.

Anyway, I just felt that Jon Burton was going "this game is great, and I've Platinumed it, but this is how we did transitions like this back in the day", and he got a lot of hate for it. Which is a shame, because he was telling the truth and it was interesting.

 

[trz]

What kind of transfer speeds everyone is getting from the PS5 internal speed benchmark test?

I have a Samsung PM9A1 which is rated for 7,000 MB/s by Samsung, but I'm only getting bit more than 5,300 MB/s from the PS5 benchmark.

The Samsung PM9A1 is supposed to be the OEM variant for 980 pro and should perform very close to it.

 

[Asher]

I got 6,500 MB/s for my 2TB WD SN850 (with MHQJRH double-sided heat sink).

 

[BRiT]

What kind of transfer speeds everyone is getting from the PS5 internal speed benchmark test?

I have a Samsung PM9A1 which is rated for 7,000 MB/s by Samsung, but I'm only getting bit more than 5,300 MB/s from the PS5 benchmark.

The Samsung PM9A1 is supposed to be the OEM variant for 980 pro and should perform very close to it.

What sort of heatsink does it have?

 

[trz]

What sort of heatsink does it have?

be quiet! MC1, so should be ok from that perspective

 

[Asher]

I ask because everything I see on that item shows it without any heatsink what-so-ever. Have you tried it with a heatsink applied?

Probably have some wires crossed here: he's saying he's using the MC1 model M2 SSD heat sink from "be quiet!" (the brand). It's a highly rated heat sink.

 

[BRiT]

Probably have some wires crossed here: he's saying he's using the MC1 model M2 SSD heat sink from "be quiet!" (the brand). It's a highly rated heat sink.

Oh. Woops. My bad.

Product Link @ https://www.bequiet.com/en/accessories/2251

Yeah, I agree, it looks like a solid heatsink. I'd expect to be getting more than 75% throughput from the rather quick tests they run [5300 / 7000].

 

[Davros]

Look at this bad boy £25

 

[Albuquerque]

^^^ LOL at that crazy ass M.2 heatsink

 

[Allandor]

Look at this bad boy £25

That is a bit much ^^
With this I would only worry that it would break the small screw

 

[Riddlewire]

Look at this bad boy £25

My uncle used to play one of those in his blues band. Very smooth sound.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I got 6540.405 MB/s read speed with my 2TB WD SN850 with built in heatsink.

 

[Aaron Elfassy]

I got 5600 MB/s from my 1tb Samsung 980 pro from the ps5 test. But in real world tests everything is faster compared to the internal storage. GoT ps5 version and ratchet & clank load in just after the fade to black. Whereas using the internal storage there is a noticeable delay fading from black.

Resetera users saying to update firmware for a small uptick in performance. I can’t be bothered now that I’ve filled up the drive. Younger me would be really bothered by the slow test result. In reality the drive has been running great and I will most likely leverage the Samsung drive for my first playthroughs

 

[trz]

I got 5600 MB/s from my 1tb Samsung 980 pro from the ps5 test. But in real world tests everything is faster compared to the internal storage. GoT ps5 version and ratchet & clank load in just after the fade to black. Whereas using the internal storage there is a noticeable delay fading from black.

Resetera users saying to update firmware for a small uptick in performance. I can’t be bothered now that I’ve filled up the drive. Younger me would be really bothered by the slow test result. In reality the drive has been running great and I will most likely leverage the Samsung drive for my first playthroughs

That seems to be quite well in line with my Samsung PM9A1, only about 300 MB/s difference. Maybe somehow Samsung drives perform worse in the benchmark than e.g. WD Black SN850 ssd's.

 

[Jay]

Quick question. Is the medium the only current gen only, multiplat title available?
Was wondering about install sizes, but you can't really use cross gen as a good indicator.

 

[Jawed]

RAID, that's what you want:

well, nearly there!