All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2021 Edition]

Licensing costs will go up with subscribers, as will revenue, and it's the relative rate of those increases that matter.

You were asserting they'd need to change how they handle the service because the rising licensing costs would scale in proportion to sub increases, which implies that you think that the revenue increases driven by more subscribers would not be able to keep pace with those rising costs. That's only true if those costs do in fact scale linearly (or faster) with the revenue increases. If they scale slower than revenue does, then that doesn't happen. If it's slower, then they really do just need enough subs and the only question is can they get enough subs.

This is all true. There are no indicators that increasing revenue from more subscribers will bring net profit increases relative to the increased cost of paying licensees. This is is, without a doubt, the most expensive expenditure of GamePass. If Microsoft have twice as many users, playing twice as many games, they will - all things being equal - be paying twice as much on licensing because that is the basis on content licensing for pretty much all media. Are games different? There is no evidence to suggest that.
 
1) again are you going to sell more of a model that looses you more money up front or one that looses less up front or even makes you a profit.

Right now sony is supply limited and the parts that are supply limited are not the casing or bluray player. But the bluray models sell for $100 more and do not cost $100 more to produce. Switching over to digital versions of the console will not create more supply but will only decrease the profits or increase the losses.

Its why sony is producing and selling more disc based systems.

2) I didn't do any random sampling. I looked at USA ebay listings from May 29th which is today for all systems sold. Those were the highest prices. The ps5 digital is $400 and the ps5 disc is $500.
1) the logic is flawed, you’re suggesting Sony are making more physical to make $50 more today but lose $100s long term. As I said, it’s not one simple answer.
Put it another way, when you buy a house do you buy it because of the price or location? What about the garden or the number of bedrooms? What about the parking or the layout? There’s lots of variables that make a you chose a house and why not everyone buys the same house or wants to live in the same area.
The ratio they are producing is pretty close to the ratio of demand (based on my sample) so they obviously got their sims right...so they are maximising their profits from the given scenario of hardware shortages.

2) it is random - one day and highest prices? Did you even look into the sales to figure it out? Last time I presented the data I linked to the search, I took a reasonable amount of data and I sanity checked it for outliners and make sure they were all ‘like for like’.

And you still haven’t provided any evidence regarding digital buying habits on more price sensitive folk which you thought was obvious from the data in hand.

I think you misread what he wrote there.

He's saying that it would make sense for Sony to prioritize manufacture of disk drive ps5s over digital only ps5s given that they're supply limited on silicon components and cannot meet demand generally.
But given his belief that digital is so popular with everyone why not just price the machines at the same loss/profit margin?
Try he bottom line is disk is more popular and all the sales and demand evidence provided point to that being a fact.
 
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If Microsoft have twice as many users, playing twice as many games, they will - all things being equal - be paying twice as much on licensing because that is the basis on content licensing for pretty much all media. Are games different? There is no evidence to suggest that.

Can we say then that the economic viability of gamepass depends on the success of MS's 1st party output? I would say MS needs to make their 1st party games exclusive to gamepass if they're serious about increasing its subscribers. Maybe by then the Netflix comparison would be more apt. (Although I don't really agree with the Netflix comparison. It's different how we consume videogames compared to how we consume other forms of media.)
 
Can we say then that the economic viability of gamepass depends on the success of MS's 1st party output? I would say MS needs to make their 1st party games exclusive to gamepass if they're serious about increasing its subscribers. Maybe by then the Netflix comparison would be more apt. (Although I don't really agree with the Netflix comparison. It's different how we consume videogames compared to how we consume other forms of media.)

I think it's fair to say that much leans on Microsoft's first party output supporting GamePass, yes. Phil Spencer said as much as reported by Eurogamer (and others). Being able to produce more of your own content means having to pay less to third parties. I also do not subscribe to the Netflix comparison because Netflix works with any screen-device so its potential audience is bigger with little effort. Where there are parallels is both Netflix and Amazon Prime both invested in own-content to reduce the content of paying licensees for theirs. I don't see this is different to TV, music or movies.

If you are selling an all-you-can-eat-buffet of content (GamePass) then the service provider needs content and has have to pay what the licensees want for the content that your customers wish to consume. But most of the other comparisons are nonsense because TV shows are invariably much faster to produce and are easily sold later. If Netflix have a TV show that bombs, they can later sell that to the SciFi network. If Microsoft makes a game that bombs, another publisher can't just release that for other platforms without the cost of porting it first. The economics and distributability of content is vastly different between TV/movie/music media and games.
 
1) the logic is flawed, you’re suggesting Sony are making more physical to make $50 more today but lose $100s long term. As I said, it’s not one simple answer.
Put it another way, when you buy a house do you buy it because of the price or location? What about the garden or the number of bedrooms? What about the parking or the layout? There’s lots of variables that make a you chose a house and why not everyone buys the same house or wants to live in the same area.
The ratio they are producing is pretty close to the ratio of demand (based on my sample) so they obviously got their sims right...so they are maximising their profits from the given scenario of hardware shortages.

2) it is random - one day and highest prices? Did you even look into the sales to figure it out? Last time I presented the data I linked to the search, I took a reasonable amount of data and I sanity checked it for outliners and make sure they were all ‘like for like’.

And you still haven’t provided any evidence regarding digital buying habits on more price sensitive folk which you thought was obvious from the data in hand.


But given his belief that digital is so popular with everyone why not just price the machines at the same loss/profit margin?
Try he bottom line is disk is more popular and all the sales and demand evidence provided point to that being a fact.


Why would sony loose $100 long term ? You do understand that the disc edition can also play digital games ? I own an xbox series x but all my games are digital. The trend is to a higher % of digital vs physical so as the generation goes on even those few left buying physical will slowly start to purchase some digital content.

You come out with the most outlandish data. The ratio they are producing is close to the ratio of demand ? Says who ? You think if they dropped a shipment of 5m digital only consoles tomorrow they wouldn't sell out across the globe ? Sony is producing more disc editions because it is in their financial interest to do so

I looked at the day I was posting . I did look at completed sales and i even went back a few days and the spread was similar. Non bundle disc editions consistently sold for about $100 more than the digital. Which is the price difference at retail.

As for your last response to me. I don't have a research firm and I can't have a group of people do a study on the buying habits of price sensitive folks . The industry doesn't seem to have a study either. So all I can point to is the consistent growth of digital and the shrinking physical market.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/190225/digital-and-physical-game-sales-in-the-us-since-2009/

https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/11/2...-ps4-publisher-figures-ea-activision-2k-games


EA - 52% console full game unit sales from july 2019 to july 2020 were digital
Take 2 55% was digital for FY 2020
Sony 51% of all games sold on ps4 in FY 2020 were Digital.

“The digital split at the beginning of the PS4/XB1 generation was approximately 5-10%,” Ahmad said in an email to Polygon last week. “We’ve seen this ratio grow by approximately 5 percentage points each year, and now it has become clear that we are past the 50 percent market.

5% growth each year.

Take-two siad that 77% of current generation console game sales were delivered online which was up from the prvious year which was 75% . They said the next quarter was 63% vs 51% the previous year.

49.8m games sold on PS4 during Apr-Jun 2019. Digital: 26.4m Physical: 23.4m 91m games sold on PS4 during Apr-Jun 2020. Digital: 67.3m Physical: 23.7m Digital +154% YoY Physical +1.3% YoY
Physical was up 154% YOY

“As you’ve seen for many years now, as consumers buy media digitally, they tend not to go back to physical purchases because of the conveniences and the advantages of buying digital,” Daniel Alegre, Activision Blizzard’s chief operating officer, said in that company’s earnings call on Aug. 4.


Look digital is taking over and we've seen this play book many times before. I remember when CD's and DVDs were popular and I'd go to best buy and a huge amount of the store was dedicated. Then one day you go in and they are removing huge chunks of the floor space dedicated to the cds and dvds and making a samsung or apple area. Now my local best buy has an aisle of cds and one of dvds/ blurays. You can see the same happening with games. Its getting a smaller and smaller foot print devoted to it. Now the aisles for games have toys in them or collectables from game series.

This is physicals last generation. I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of consoles have an accessory you have to buy if you want to use a disc drive like the old hd dvd drive from microsoft.
 
This is all true. There are no indicators that increasing revenue from more subscribers will bring net profit increases relative to the increased cost of paying licensees. This is is, without a doubt, the most expensive expenditure of GamePass. If Microsoft have twice as many users, playing twice as many games, they will - all things being equal - be paying twice as much on licensing because that is the basis on content licensing for pretty much all media. Are games different? There is no evidence to suggest that.

We don't know that this is necessarily true even for titles that have residual payments based on the number of people that play the game.

The only thing we know, based on what MS have said is that payment to developers and/or publishers is on a per title, per developer, per publisher basis. In most, but not all, cases the game creators get to choose how they will get paid for their title being on GP.

Some choose a larger upfront payment and forgo residual payments. Some opt for purely residual payments.

Residual payments could, and likely are, front loaded (larger payments for first X number of players with decreasing payments for each of the next Y chunk of players). This safeguards the developer against a situation where they want residual payments, but don't want to get paid too little if not enough people play their game to make it worthwhile to them.

Other developers have gone for a mix of a smaller upfront payment combined with smaller residual payments.

In those 2 cases, the fewer people playing the game, the more costly it is for MS, while the cost decreases as more people play it. For most developers it's a net revenue increase regardless as these are titles that are being put onto GP after their sales have started to tail off. So it doesn't matter if 10 people play the game or 10 million people play the game. The game was unlikely to gain significant sales revenue if it wasn't put onto GP. But on top of that exposure to more people gives the potential for increased revenue from retail sales of the game in addition to the revenue from GP. This may or may not happen to all developers but has happened to quite a few indie developers that have talked about it.

Because of that last point, going forward I could see a lot of developers potentially opting for lower residuals or lower overall payments if they believe that the exposure of their game to a much larger audience will likely lead to increased sales of that game or other games that they have created.

Now, all of that likely mostly applies indie and AA games. In addition to those, you can likely put AAA games that are well into vanishingly small sales territory. IE - all of these are likely have deals structured so that the developer/publisher gets are large up front payment with residuals that are either small or are reduced as the number of players increases.

Heck due to the nature of sales within the launch window, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if residuals were greatly front loaded (and large) in this case.

All of that bit is how I imagine residuals (if there are any) are structured as there are far more developers that want to be on GP than MS is currently allowing into GP on a weekly basis.

The one interesting thing that comes up is what about AAA games that enter GP either at launch or in, say, the first 6 months of release when sales are still relatively strong? Here it could make sense for MS to enter into residual payments that don't reduce over time in order to boost subscriber numbers and/or maintain current subscribers. But even here there's likely room for scaling residual payments depending on the relative "value" of the IP.

This is where the developer/publisher will have the greatest latitude in dictating terms for being on GP that would be acceptable to them. Unlike the previous group where if what the developers want and what MS determines could be profitable don't match up, they can move on to the next developer.

Obviously this means that the service would be unprofitable at the start as MS has to ensure fair compensation for developers in the case that few people play their games due to low subscriber numbers or the possibility that even with large subscriber numbers not many people play the games. Combine that with MS experimenting with a multitude of payment options for developers and losses are quite acceptable.

As the platform matures in both subscriber numbers and MS' experience with various developer payment structures, I fully expect that any residual payments will be structured to be profitable to MS and fair to the developer. I also expect that most residuals (if the developer chooses that option) will be on a sliding scale with larger upfront residuals.

This isn't like, say Netflix that still has to compete with VOD rental services or Spotify that has to give payments based on 100's of thousands (or millions) of songs being on the service (which Netflix also has to deal with). I doubt there will ever come a time when there are 10's of thousands of games on GP much less 100's of thousands. It'll likely always be a service with a curated list of games from well regarded developers or critically acclaimed games from new developers.

Regards,
SB
 
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We don't know that this is necessarily true even for titles that have residual payments based on the number of people that play the game.

Enough developers have now spoken off the record about their GamePass contacts with Microsoft that we do know that this is the arrangement for all of those who have spoken.

As the platform matures in both subscriber numbers and MS' experience with various developer payment structures, I fully expect that any residual payments will be structured to be profitable to MS and fair to the developer. I also expect that most residuals (if the developer chooses that option) will be on a sliding scale with larger upfront residuals.

I fully expect that some developers/publishers will walk once the deal ceases to be as appealing and risk-free as it currently is. Unsurprisingly, devs and publishers like the present GamePass arrangements where they are getting paid well and Microsoft isn't making any money.
 
Last 2 PS5 disk consoles on UK eBay sold for average ~35% markup
Last 2 PS5 digital consoles on UK eBay sold for average ~25% markup
.
Here is a very good site
https://stockx.com/electronics/

Sony PS5 PlayStation 5 (US Plug) # of Sales 88405 Average Sale Price $656
Sony PS5 PlayStation 5 (US Plug) Digital Edition # of Sales 59095 Average Sale Price $607
Microsoft Xbox Series X (US Plug) # of Sales 50255 Average Sale Price $575
Microsoft Xbox Series S (US Plug) # of Sales 20353 Average Sale Price $329

Sony PS5 PlayStation 5 (UK Plug) # of Sales 2894 Average Sale Price $736
Sony PS5 PlayStation 5 (UK Plug) Digital Edition# of Sales 2456 Average Sale Price $648
Microsoft Xbox Series X Console (UK Plug) # of Sales 1158 Average Sale Price $648
Microsoft Xbox Series S Console (UK Plug) # of Sales 601 Average Sale Price $336

Based on 10s of thousands of sales, you can say a few things
the ps5 is valued higher
The series S is unwanted (this will pick up during xmas because um you know, xmas, even the wii U picked up during xmas :oops:)

I find surprising the PS5 DE is nearly the same number as the normal edition, I would of thought it would be closer to 4:1
 
Licensing costs will go up with subscribers, as will revenue, and it's the relative rate of those increases that matter.

You were asserting they'd need to change how they handle the service because the rising licensing costs would scale in proportion to sub increases, which implies that you think that the revenue increases driven by more subscribers would not be able to keep pace with those rising costs.

That's only true if those costs do in fact scale linearly (or faster) with the revenue increases. If they scale slower than revenue does, then that doesn't happen. If it's slower, then they really do just need enough subs and the only question is can they get enough subs.

This is something you've expressed skepticism about, because you've talked about not buying the argument that they will become profitable just by growing large enough. But the only way that makes sense is if we take for granted that the licensing costs grow at a rate that puts that break even point out of reach or makes it outright impossible. There's nothing to support that though. It's pure speculation on your part. I've previously highlighted a number of reasons why licensing cost growth may be much slower than with something like Netflix even. Not even taking into account the shift to a heavier first party mix.

And that article doesn't support what you're asserting around the sustainability of cost. It implies quite the opposite.

That licensing costs will go up is not in question though. That just really doesn't matter by itself. It only matters in the context of relative revenue growth.

thats also the main reason why they are investing so heavily into their first party. It doesnt matter how many subscribers game pass has, elder scrolls 6 will cost whatever it costs, whatever id is working on now after doom eternal, its production costs dont increase with subscriber count. imo, their goal is for all the big games on game pass to be from their first party, while all the smaller, indy type games are sourced from third parties. (aside from indiana jones, sorry couldnt help myself)
 
The trend is to a higher % of digital vs physical so as the generation goes on even those few left buying physical will slowly start to purchase some digital content.

I haven't really followed your discussion but let me just insert one argument.

It doesn't follow, say there are 70-30 skew of share in favor of digital purchase, that 70% of gamers would now find a no-disc console more attractive, nor does it follow that 70% of gamers are now only purchasing their games digitally.

We can have an 80% of gamers buying games both physical and digital, and still have an 80-20 share in favor of digital purchases. What we are seeing is a trend that more people are buying through the online store whether it be full game or MTX. But the skew doesn't translate 1:1 on how much gamers are willing to abandon the option of purchasing physical games.
 
But the skew doesn't translate 1:1 on how much gamers are willing to abandon the option of purchasing physical games.

This is certainly true. At least one person here (I can't remember who it was) mentioned that they would like to buy physical games, but that they no longer buy physical games because digital is just so much more convenient. While I'm sure they appreciate having the option to buy physical games for their console, the reality is that they no longer buy physical games for their console.

Just like on PC. It'll take a while before people just admit to themselves that they'll never buy physical games again.

For myself, I still installed optical drives in PCs that I built for myself for years after I'd stopped buying physical games or movies. But eventually I just admitted to myself that I no longer used physical media of any kind for anything, so I haven't installed an optical drive in my PC for almost 10 years now. The last physical disk version of a game I purchased was back around 2005, I think. So about 8 or so years between when I stopped buying physical and when I stopped installing optical drives in my machines.

Regards,
SB
 
Cyberpunk 2077 is not doing well & CDPR is struggling. New financial report reveals they missed expectations by a looooot. Earlier reports indicated that #Cyberpunk2077 hadn't even sold 1 million copies in 2021.

It really is wild how this game & company has fallen.

Pre-launch #Cyberpunk2077 had sales expectations of 27 million copies by the end of 2021. As of the end of May 2021, the game has sold around 15 million copies with about 14 million of that coming in December 2020.

:oops:

 
Surprised at that poor q1 sales. Didn't think word of mouth would tank it this hard. I wonder if some of the q1 is explained by folks asking their money back after getting disappointed around christmas time? i.e. q4 sales turned into q1 returns?

Looks like 14million copies sold in q4 and 1 million copies in q1.
 

Hmmm, going to have to look into this. Did they mean CD Projekt Red (the developer who made Cyberpunk 2077) or CD Projekt which owns both CD Project Red and the GOG storefront (which has had significant financial difficulties in the past year such that they've had to drop almost all of their advertising sponsorships)?

To be clear these are 2 separate entities. If it's CD Projekt, then these losses include the financial difficulties that GoG has had over the past year. Basically because of all their difficulties Epic Games have benefitted by taking over the advertising sponsorships that GoG used to have.

Regards,
SB
 
The fact that you even have statistics and charts on this is funny at this time:

E2u9vz_WUAknUH-



 
As expected, their reporting is less than good.

They are reporting numbers for CDP which includes CDPR and GOG, and then somehow attributing those losses to Cyberpunk 2077. You can get download the financial report from CDP's website.

Revenue was up slightly, however this was greatly offset by selling costs going up significantly as well as general and administrative costs leading to a slight decrease in Gross profit. However, this means that this leads to an overall decrease in Operating profit leading to the Net profits decreasing by the 64.7% referenced in the article.

While there is depreciation from CP2077 there is also depreciation from some of their other properties (GWENT, Thronebreaker and The Witcher 3 for Switch). This appears to be standard practice for them distributing the cost of development over several years. CP2077 is being depreciated over a 5 year period while GWENT and the Switch version of TW3 are being depreciated over 3 years from their respective launches (Oct. 2018 for GWENT and Oct. 2019 for TW3).

Now here we run into the section detailing the major factors involved with operating expenses which was the major driver in their reduction of profitability.

Regarding operating expenses, in the first quarter of 2021 the main contribution was from Selling costs, at 62 077 thousand PLN, which increased by 27 520 thousand PLN on a q/q basis (79.6%).

Those include upkeep and maintenance of previously published products (CDPR) with GWENT and CP2077 being noted. CP2077 represented a larger increase because there were no games needing updates or patches for Q1 2020. That should be obvious as their last major game that required extensive patching and maintenance was TW3 which hasn't had any major patches or updates in years.

Selling costs also includes costs associated with GoG, which as mentioned has been experiencing problems with profitability for the past year. Advertising and promotions is also included here.

Another area with increased costs comes from General and Administrative.

General and administrative costs of the CD PROJEKT Group were reported at 30 112 thousand PLN in Q1 2021, having increased by 18 341 thousand PLN (155.8%) compared to the reference period.

This was almost exactly 2/3 as much of an increase as the increase in selling costs.

This includes the following 2 things, which I'll quote rather than try to explain.

This line item aggregates fixed and result-dependent remuneration of administrative teams, fixed remuneration of board members at the Group’s member companies, as well as expenses related to the incentive program, along with other bought-in services which qualify for this category. The reported increase was due to additional recruitment and expansion of the Group’s activities over the past 12 months, as well as estimation of additional entitlements assigned under the new incentive program for 2020-2025 (9 395 thousand PLN in Q1 2021 vs. 3 923 thousand PLN in the reference period) - both categories together make up approximately one half of general and administrative expenses.

So this includes entitlements, incentives, recruitment and expansion of activities. So, things such as performance incentives will be in here. However, this represents only half of the increased costs associated with this category. Recruitments could be related to ... The other half...

In this category the CD PROJEKT RED segment also recognizes R&D costs related to preliminary (exploratory) phases of development of new games, before such project advance to the development phase, where their associated development expenditures begin to be capitalized as assets. In the first quarter of 2021 these costs reached 9 239 thousand PLN, and this figure has no counterpart in the reference period.

This half includes things related to what is basically pre-production and R&D for new games. Again, there is no counterpart for this in Q1 2020, so it's purely an increase in costs because no new games were in pre-production back then. This basically means Q1 2021 includes new spending for one or more new games they are looking into starting development of.

TL: DR
  • CP2077 is part of the increased costs related to the reduction in Net Profits, but it's only a part of it. And that is mainly because there were no associated update and patch costs for a major game in 2020. If I were to look back at the Financial reports after TW3 launched, there's likely a similar spike in operating costs because of the patches and updates that were done for TW3.
Regards,
SB
 
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I found this graph in their financial report interesting.

Compare TW3 to CP2077. And then compare TW3 to TW2. :oops:

Regards,
SB
 

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