Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2021]

[PSman1700]

Super cool game I’d love to play but I didn’t find the RT implementation super impressive. Strange, maybe it’s because of the otherwise simplistic old-school graphics? Could also be the quality of the stream.

Did you watch the whole 1.44h video? It gets intresting around the 20 minute mark or so, where DF even notes how much these old school graphics/games benefit from ray tracing. John even says that like Q2RTX, a game officially launched back in '97 looks absolutely amazing now with the RT addition, same for minecraft and others.
The RT in the sunrise scene in the above DF video really transforms the whole visual fidelity of the game imo, just amazing (around 21 minute mark), considering how old of an engine this is.

It just looks so darn accurate with the lighting and other visual features. But yeah, it remains an old engine/game so while lighting has improved beyond basically anything these days, the base structure of the game is still old. Still, i wish every game gets this RT (and other effects while at it) threathment, like Doom 3, half life 1/2, dues ex etc etc, either officially or community mod.

Back in 2018, damn already 3 years or so ago, when we got ray tracing into games i wasnt expecting for that tech to become this relevant into games (and consoles) so fast. Same for DLSS when it introduced it was abit 'meh', but now its a game changer.

 

[Allandor]

Did you watch the whole 1.44h video? It gets intresting around the 20 minute mark or so, where DF even notes how much these old school graphics/games benefit from ray tracing. John even says that like Q2RTX, a game officially launched back in '97 looks absolutely amazing now with the RT addition, same for minecraft and others.
The RT in the sunrise scene in the above DF video really transforms the whole visual fidelity of the game imo, just amazing (around 21 minute mark), considering how old of an engine this is.

It just looks so darn accurate with the lighting and other visual features. But yeah, it remains an old engine/game so while lighting has improved beyond basically anything these days, the base structure of the game is still old. Still, i wish every game gets this RT (and other effects while at it) threathment, like Doom 3, half life 1/2, dues ex etc etc, either officially or community mod.

Back in 2018, damn already 3 years or so ago, when we got ray tracing into games i wasnt expecting for that tech to become this relevant into games (and consoles) so fast. Same for DLSS when it introduced it was abit 'meh', but now its a game changer.

Well I would disagree here with DF. Quake 2 RTX looks nice for its age, yes. But that has more to do with the modded textures etc. Often the game is compared vanilla vs RTX version, which is just an unfair comparison.

There are other non RT mods for Q2 that increases the quality of the graphics. From such a version to the RTX version the visual jump is really minimal when playing. Only if you really look for it you will notice it.

Technically it is a great demo but still an unfair comparison
Also, even with new graphic mods etc the game still runs at >>300fps. But as soon as you try it with RT that is over.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Well I would disagree here with DF. Quake 2 RTX looks nice for its age, yes. But that has more to do with the modded textures etc. Often the game is compared vanilla vs RTX version, which is just an unfair comparison.

There are other non RT mods for Q2 that increases the quality of the graphics. From such a version to the RTX version the visual jump is really minimal when playing. Only if you really look for it you will notice it.

Technically it is a great demo but still an unfair comparison
Also, even with new graphic mods etc the game still runs at >>300fps. But as soon as you try it with RT that is over.

I think this is a pretty interesting perspective. Games can definitely look better with other visual enhancements instead of RT, I do wonder why Minecraft, Quake, and Mario 64 are being used to promote the technology, because it doesn't make these games look great no matter how wonderful the technology is.

RTRT is most definitely the future of gaming though. The Metro game looks substantially better with RT.

 

[PSman1700]

Well I would disagree here with DF. Quake 2 RTX looks nice for its age, yes. But that has more to do with the modded textures etc. Often the game is compared vanilla vs RTX version, which is just an unfair comparison.

There are other non RT mods for Q2 that increases the quality of the graphics. From such a version to the RTX version the visual jump is really minimal when playing. Only if you really look for it you will notice it.

Technically it is a great demo but still an unfair comparison
Also, even with new graphic mods etc the game still runs at >>300fps. But as soon as you try it with RT that is over.

I see where your coming from. Still, its largely a personal opinion again. Some find the ray tracing transforming the game, others do not and prefer texture packs. Some dont think rift apart looks substantionally better then say R&C PS4, different opinions from different users

 

[see colon]

I see where your coming from. Still, its largely a personal opinion again. Some find the ray tracing transforming the game, others do not and prefer texture packs. Some dont think rift apart looks substantionally better then say R&C PS4, different opinions from different users

The thing about Quake 2 RTX is that it includes a texture pack. I would agree with @Allandor that a fair comparison would include Quake 2 with the same assets/textures as the RTX version at the very least. Special shaders for glass and water would also close the gap.

That said, Q2RTX is great simply because of all the subtle reflections everywhere.

 

[Riddlewire]

Now this is what I call a wonderfully balanced approach to game development.
Something for ALL platform owners to hate.

 

[Globalisateur]

Now this is what I call a wonderfully balanced approach to game development.
Something for ALL platform owners to hate.

Seeing the performance on Pro the drops on PS5 are very likely due to I/O streaming (that's only the Pro version running via BC). Which would also help explain why the drops are kinda random in some cases as shown by VGTech with the XSX version. He found a big drop not seen by DF.

 

[Remij]

Seeing the performance on Pro the drops on PS5 are very likely due to I/O streaming (that's only the Pro version running via BC). Which would also help explain why the drops are kinda random in some cases as shown by VGTech with the XSX version. He found a big drop not seen by DF.

How does a game designed for PS3/X360... have I/O streaming drops on PS4/PS5?

To be fair, the game stutters and hitches like crazy on PC, completely terrible. It's worse than the consoles, and the developers should be embarrassed... Walking/running around the Citadel and the frametimes hitch all over the place.. and this is on a 3900X and 2080ti..

The originals on PC are perfectly fine, however.

 

[Globalisateur]

How does a game designed for PS3/X360... have I/O streaming drops on PS4/PS5?

To be fair, the game stutters and hitches like crazy on PC, completely terrible. It's worse than the consoles, and the developers should be embarrassed... Walking/running around the Citadel and the frametimes hitch all over the place.. and this is on a 3900X and 2080ti..

The originals on PC are perfectly fine, however.

Because of I/O emulation layer between PS4 I/O and PS5 I/O. Different filesystem, throttled bandwidth etc. Mass effect could be a specific case not kind with BC I/O on PS5.

Because as of now the vas majority of Pro games have being running 2x to 2.5x better on PS5 than on Pro. A game dropping at 30fps on PS5 should drop at 15fps on Pro, and that's far from being the case as the Pro game even runs better than on X1X. Ergo, most of the big drops on PS5 should be I/O stutters (and I already thought it was the case BTW judging by the pattern of those drops).

 

[Remij]

Because of I/O emulation layer between PS4 I/O and PS5 I/O. Different filesystem, throttled bandwidth etc. Mass effect could be a specific case not kind with BC I/O on PS5.

Because as of now the vas majority of Pro games have being running 2x to 2.5x better on PS5 than on Pro. A game dropping at 30fps on PS5 should drop at 15fps on Pro, and that's far from being the case as the Pro game even runs better than on X1X. Ergo, most of the big drops on PS5 should be I/O stutters (and I already thought it was the case BTW judging by the pattern of those drops).

You didn't answer my question at all.

I'm not asking about the difference between PS4 and PS5.... I'm asking how does a game designed around PS3 I/O... have I/O streaming issues on PS4/PS5.....

There's absolutely no reason for it.

All you're telling me is that the developers didn't do their jobs properly.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

My guess is that some executives at EA saw an estimate for how much it would cost to release a quality product, and then saw an estimate for how much it would cost to bodge it and scarper. Then, when weighing it up, decided that their cocaine addicted, philandering lifestyle could be best maintained by the latter.

 

[Globalisateur]

You didn't answer my question at all.

I'm not asking about the difference between PS4 and PS5.... I'm asking how does a game designed around PS3 I/O... have I/O streaming issues on PS4/PS5.....

There's absolutely no reason for it.

All you're telling me is that the developers didn't do their jobs properly.

I answered you. But you are asking the wrong question. Based on those videos it has I/O problems specifically when running on PS5, and not more than usual when running on Pro.

The problem is that everybody is assuming this is a PS5 game because some journalists keep repeating it's a "PS5 version". It is not a PS5 version. This game has being optimized (ish) to run on a PS4 and Pro. Not PS5.

 

[Remij]

I answered you. But you are asking the wrong question. Based on those videos it has I/O problems specifically when running on PS5, and not more than usual when running on Pro.

The problem is that everybody is assuming this is a PS5 game because some journalists keep repeating it's a "PS5 version". It is not a PS5 version. This game has being optimized (ish) to run on a PS4 and Pro. Not PS5.

I'm not asking the wrong question.

This game is 2 generations old at this point. There should be no I/O issues.. regardless of "emulation" or not.

You're just making excuses.

And like I said, the game is far worse on far more powerful PCs than even PS5. It's embarrassing that it was allowed to ship in this state... considering they delayed the game to "make it better".

You really need to stop getting offended at people calling games which run on PS5 "PS5 versions"... because that's the main issue you seem to have. Devs not running PS5 in the right "mode" to take advantage of it IS a Sony PS5 problem. Regardless of what you THINK... those are the PS5 versions that exist.

 

[snc]

Devs not running PS5 in the right "mode" to take advantage of it IS a Sony PS5 problem.

What problem ? ps5 bc mode is quite good tough xsx has even better.

 

[zed]

This game is 2 generations old at this point. There should be no I/O issues.. regardless of "emulation" or not.

I agree, looking at those eye bleeding bad graphics if thats causing a modern PC to struggle then something is not right at all.

 

[Remij]

I agree, looking at those eye bleeding bad graphics if thats causing a modern PC to struggle then something is not right at all.

It's definitely not right haha.

It stutters all over the place. Doesn't matter where you are, or what you're doing.. the game will hitch and stutter.. and FPS are just terrible considering what's being rendered.

On consoles, I can see people liking the "Game selector front end" they created... but on PC.. it's just janky as hell. I select the game... then get an ugly splash screen on a grey background.. then it loads into the game's own menu... then I can change some settings...

Bleh!

Halo MCC is how you implement multiple games into a single client.

ME:LE is just disappointing all around on PC especially. I'd completely recommend the originals with mods over the new LE. They'll still have their jank from the UE3 days.. but they'll perform 2x as good and not hitch and stutter all the time.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Halo MCC is how you implement multiple games into a single client.

I'm not sure I'd hold Halo: MCC up as a shining example of how to integrate multiple games into a single client. They didn't do a good job of giving a universal framework for the various 3rd party studios (a different studio working on each Halo title in MCC) to build upon so that the whole was a unified experience. As such, Halo: MCC was quite broken and bug infested for years before they finally managed to get most of the bugs ironed out.

It's a good product now, but it wasn't so great at launch.

Regards,
SB

 

[Remij]

I'm not sure I'd hold Halo: MCC up as a shining example of how to integrate multiple games into a single client. They didn't do a good job of giving a universal framework for the various 3rd party studios (a different studio working on each Halo title in MCC) to build upon so that the whole was a unified experience. As such, Halo: MCC was quite broken and bug infested for years before they finally managed to get most of the bugs ironed out.

It's a good product now, but it wasn't so great at launch.

Regards,
SB

I understand the history of the MCC's issues, haha... but I'm referring to design principle.

In MCC, it feels like the games are integrated into the client. With ME:LE... you know you're just launching another launcher... You can't really do anything inside of it.

Anyway, the launcher is the least of ME:LE's issues.. lol

 

[Riddlewire]

Sorry I didn't mention it in the previous post, but a big "Thank You" to Tom for doing all that work on the ME:LE 8th gen video.
That must have taken a tiny lifetime to assemble.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

ME:LE is just disappointing all around on PC especially. I'd completely recommend the originals with mods over the new LE. They'll still have their jank from the UE3 days.. but they'll perform 2x as good and not hitch and stutter all the time.

Bit of a bummer, I tried to get into the series so many times but the 1st game is just a pain to play. I was hoping to get the LE to try again.