All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2021 Edition]

[Johnny Awesome]

I feel like we just go round and round on this stuff. Xbox fans like GP and think it will be profitable and Sony fans hate GP and think it will fail. Time will tell. I'm in the optimistic Xbox camp.

PS: I don't hate Sony, but just not a fan of the controller and can live without what I consider great games like Spider-Man and Uncharted etc... mainly for time reasons.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I feel like we just go round and round on this stuff. Xbox fans like GP and think it will be profitable and Sony fans hate GP and think it will fail. Time will tell. I'm in the optimistic Xbox camp.

We go around and around because you think everybody who wants to understand how GamePass will become profitable hates GamePass.

GamePass isn't for me because I don't game enough for it to be cost effective and because some publishers do not seem to embrace it. As somebody who enjoys Ubisoft open world games like Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs and Far Cry, and buys way more third party games which are rarely, if ever, in GamePass it would cost me more money.

Until you can accept that other people do not hate GamePass, sensible discussion is impossible.

 

[dobwal]

It was the MS guy (not me) that brought up the releasing a game on gamepass will make make you sell more of that game, So any beef with this assertion you can take up with him. I was just pointing out it was obviously bogus.

OK thanks, so we have some data lets look at it (next month ubisoft's next report comes out so we can also add that as well)
This is all revenue, physical,downloads whatever,
Hey it could just be a coincidence that they started to earn less with xbox hardware after gamepass came out (who truly knows), its just another data point.
Btw this is only comparing Xbox one and ps4, next report will have the ps5 & series x/s

View with firefox to see image (basically it shows post gamepass ubisoft didnt make as much money with the xbox one, a very sizable difference)

He said that because that is what MS's data shows. The fact that you can't find a bunch of devs stating such doesn't make it not true.

Its probably is a coincidence because a sudden fall in sales to levels that been stable for the last three years, doesn't automatically point to GamePass. 20 million subscribers didn't just jump into GamePass from the outset. And the growing level of subscribers doesn't coincide with an ever decreasing level of xbox games sales from Ubisoft.

 

[dobwal]

We go around and around because you think everybody who wants to understand how GamePass will become profitable hates GamePass.

GamePass isn't for me because I don't game enough for it to be cost effective and because some publishers do not seem to embrace it. As somebody who enjoys Ubisoft open world games like Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs and Far Cry, and buys way more third party games which are rarely, if ever, in GamePass it would cost me more money.

Until you can accept that other people do not hate GamePass, sensible discussion is impossible.

It won't be possible unless MS states it. It practically impossible to know because we don't know how much MS is willing to pay to quickly grow the subscription base.

If Epic is anything to go by, well-financed companies are willing to spend out their ass to grow their userbases for new services or stores. Epic expects to lose close to $600 million between 2019 and the end of this year due to its store.

Epic had $444 million in dev guarantees related to Epic store sales for 2020 and manage just $265 million in sales. So they had to hand over 100s of millions to satisfy those guarantees.

I'm not sure what type of timeline or projections are warranting such expenditures from Epic but it is obvious we aren't privy to enough information to try to parse out how readily these services will become profitable if ever.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It won't be possible unless MS states it.

When GamePass is profitable, Microsoft will say - just like that's stated that it's not profitable.

 

[dobwal]

When GamePass is profitable, Microsoft will say - just like that's stated that it's not profitable.

And we will probably never know when MS has recouped all its investments (if it does) which would make the service profitable overall.

Shit, we can still have a discussion of whether Xbox overall has been profitable because unless I'm mistake MS has never flat out said so. LOL

 

[zed]

Didnt It came out in the apple vs epic case that the xbox never was profitable?

I think gamepass can start turning a profit in a decade or so, what they need to do (and this is what they are actively trying to do 'https://www.thegamer.com/microsoft-...d-every-major-publisher-for-a-game-pass-deal/') is become a near monopoly because then you have the power to dictate terms, at the moment they are not there yet so they have to offer good terms to developers to get them to put their games on gamepass, eg heres 20 million to let use have your game on gamepass, but when they become big enuf, they can go, OK it used to be $20 million but now its $5 million, take it or leave it, we dont esp need your game as we have another 2340 in our library, and since people are not buying as many games as they used the developer will be like gulp, well I better take it.
Why are ppl not buying as many games as before? (see UK charts, ubisoft etc for data) , analogy - think of it as living at an all you can eat buffet, sure every so often you feel like having some french food and go and spend some money on that, but in general you will find you're spending less money eating out than you did before, sure the food is prolly of shittery quality but its edible.

 

[BRiT]

Didnt It came out in the apple vs epic case that the xbox never was profitable?

No. It was selling a console, not the Xbox division, but that didn't stop the media and those with their own agenda from wrongly reporting things.

Also with that, it's a matter of semantics and analytics as to what "for a profit" means, as there are a lot of costs that can be rolled into the unit when dealing with accounting principals, such as all the Research and Design as well as on going Maintenance and Updates for it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Gabe Newell teases the possibility of bringing Steam games to console

Newell, who has been living and working in New Zealand since early 2020, teased the possibility on Tuesday during a visit to Sancta Maria College, where he was a guest speaker for digital studies students.

“Will Steam be putting any games on consoles, or will it just stay on PC?” Newell was asked.

“You will get a better idea of that by the end of this year,” he replied, before adding, “and it won’t be the answer you expect.”

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...ssibility-of-bringing-steam-games-to-console/

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Didnt It came out in the apple vs epic case that the xbox never was profitable?

I think gamepass can start turning a profit in a decade or so, what they need to do (and this is what they are actively trying to do 'https://www.thegamer.com/microsoft-...d-every-major-publisher-for-a-game-pass-deal/') is become a near monopoly because then you have the power to dictate terms, at the moment they are not there yet so they have to offer good terms to developers to get them to put their games on gamepass, eg heres 20 million to let use have your game on gamepass, but when they become big enuf, they can go, OK it used to be $20 million but now its $5 million, take it or leave it, we dont esp need your game as we have another 2340 in our library, and since people are not buying as many games as they used the developer will be like gulp, well I better take it.
Why are ppl not buying as many games as before? (see UK charts, ubisoft etc for data) , analogy - think of it as living at an all you can eat buffet, sure every so often you feel like having some french food and go and spend some money on that, but in general you will find you're spending less money eating out than you did before, sure the food is prolly of shittery quality but its edible.

The point being made about the console business:

• Hardware (consoles) are sold at a loss or break even.
• Royalties (about 30%) from software sales on consoles is where most of the profit is made.
  • Some profits from accessories as well, but games sales is the majority of it.

MS testified in court that they've never made a "profit" on the Xbox console hardware, thus the 30% royalty for selling games on Xbox is justified.

Reason this was part of the questioning:

• Apple makes large profits from the sale of iPhone hardware.
• On top of that Apply charges the same 30% royalty for selling apps on their platform.

Reason that Apple wants the testimony thrown out.

• It makes them look bad.

Regards,
SB

 

[liams]

Gabe Newell teases the possibility of bringing Steam games to console

Newell, who has been living and working in New Zealand since early 2020, teased the possibility on Tuesday during a visit to Sancta Maria College, where he was a guest speaker for digital studies students.

“Will Steam be putting any games on consoles, or will it just stay on PC?” Newell was asked.

“You will get a better idea of that by the end of this year,” he replied, before adding, “and it won’t be the answer you expect.”

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...ssibility-of-bringing-steam-games-to-console/

This is pure rumour territory, but apparently valve might have another punt at a steam machine, which honestly makes the most sense for "putting steam games on console", especially combined with Gabes “and it won’t be the answer you expect.”

I cant imagine either of the console manufacturers would be interested in letting valve set up a steam store on their consoles. And aside from the obvious possibility for half life alyx to be a launch title for psvr2, there isnt much game wise that valve could put on console, aside from something like a orange box remake


There is someone on resetera who claims to be a former valve employee, who states that valve has a console type device in development, that was originally meant to launch alongside half life alyx. here is an image showing some of their posts:

If this is the case and valve intends to launch a console it does explain some of their actions, their continued support and development of proton seemed very robust for something that was done for ideological reasons, using proton as a base from which to build their console platform explains their continued investment into it.

If valve do announce that they are going to start selling consoles it will be very interesting to see how the microsofts and sonys of the world react. Right now steam is the "switzerland" of pc gaming, and it makes sense for the platform holders to put their games on it, but if putting their games on steam also means that they will be released on a competitors console it is likely that the would stop releasing their games on steam.

 

[zed]

No. It was selling a console, not the Xbox division, but that didn't stop the media and those with their own agenda from wrongly reporting things.

yes you are correct
https://www.geekwire.com/2021/epic-...microsoft-never-made-money-off-xbox-hardware/

Microsoft revealed in a court appearance this week that it does not, and has never, earned money on the per-unit sales for the Xbox. Each console is sold at a loss, and the profit from the project for Microsoft comes entirely from software sales.

Though from memory I would say I've heard both MS and Sony say at some stage their various consoles were profitable (perhaps not the original xbox becuase of the nvidia deal ) but IIRC even the expensive to produce ps3 was profitable at the end of its cycle

 

[Deleted member 11852]

And we will probably never know when MS has recouped all its investments (if it does) which would make the service profitable overall. Shit, we can still have a discussion of whether Xbox overall has been profitable because unless I'm mistake MS has never flat out said so. LOL

This is true and I've idly wondered about how internal budgeting works. I.e. does PS5 become profitable only once all the R&D, that likely began around 2014/2015, has been recovered or is it accepted that part of any PlayStation generation's finances includes investing in the R&D for the next box and the cost count for any new PlayStation begins once marketing, manufacturing and shipping begin? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Silent_Buddha]

yes you are correct
https://www.geekwire.com/2021/epic-...microsoft-never-made-money-off-xbox-hardware/

Though from memory I would say I've heard both MS and Sony say at some stage their various consoles were profitable (perhaps not the original xbox becuase of the nvidia deal ) but IIRC even the expensive to produce ps3 was profitable at the end of its cycle

Yes, at some stage they do become profitable as component prices generally, but not always, drop over time. However, this will also generally be accompanied by an official price drop which then makes each console not profitable again (at least for MS). That brief time between component price drops reducing the cost enough that it's now lower than the ASP (average selling price) of the console and the point where MS announces an official price drop is where some consoles might be sold for a small profit. However, even then this can be accompanied by price promotions before an official price reduction. So, it's unlikely that many consoles are sold at a profit during this brief window.

When breaking down revenue in financial reports (both internal and external via public reports), the profitability will be calculated for all consoles over X period of time. In these generally accepted accounting practices, it's unlikely that MS has ever shown a profit for the Xbox console hardware.

Regards,
SB

 

[zed]

UK April hardware
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...in-april-as-ps5-stock-slows-uk-monthly-charts

Switch > Xbox Series > PS4 > PS5
I guess hardware shortages ( which I read today IBM say will last until 2023 )

 

[chris1515]

UK April hardware
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...in-april-as-ps5-stock-slows-uk-monthly-charts

Switch > Xbox Series > PS4 > PS5
I guess hardware shortages

Hardware shortage of PS5 in Europe in April.

 

[iroboto]

Technically a hardware shortage of Xbox as well if they can’t be found on shelves. I think at some point in time, if both are out of reserve, sales will be dictated entirely by how fast they can be manufactured.
I do recall Sony having a distinct advantage in lead time to build, so it looks like a gap of a couple million. But that reserve should be long gone now.

Curious to see which platform developer is making more per month.

 

[Nesh]

Technically a hardware shortage of Xbox as well if they can’t be found on shelves. I think at some point in time, if both are out of reserve, sales will be dictated entirely by how fast they can be manufactured.
I do recall Sony having a distinct advantage in lead time to build, so it looks like a gap of a couple million. But that reserve should be long gone now.

Curious to see which platform developer is making more per month.

Considering that both consoles are sold out, it looks like the Series puts more stock out there in the UK.
Its also not just Series X but also Series S.
I can find Series S consoles in shops but cant find X or PS5 anywhere.

 

[iroboto]

Considering that both consoles are sold out, it looks like the Series puts more stock out there in the UK.
Its also not just Series X but also Series S.
I can find Series S consoles in shops but cant find X or PS5 anywhere.

Understandably, series S has a pricing bracket problem. I suspect if it shipped with 1TB hard drive it would be all sold out as well, but right now the cost of series S (379) + expansion card (299) >> series X (599)

So; this decision is easy to make for a lot of people who want more than 500GB. Just buy the series x; way more powerful and $80 cheaper.

 

[Globalisateur]

Technically a hardware shortage of Xbox as well if they can’t be found on shelves. I think at some point in time, if both are out of reserve, sales will be dictated entirely by how fast they can be manufactured.
I do recall Sony having a distinct advantage in lead time to build, so it looks like a gap of a couple million. But that reserve should be long gone now.

Curious to see which platform developer is making more per month.

In France the XSS is easily available at amazon.fr and Micromania (the biggest retailer). I think it's too expensive. If there wasn't COVID I think MS would have already reduced its price at $249 or $199.