Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2020-2021] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[snc]

nxgamer guessing its not cb on ps5 "ps5 looks to be rendering at native resolution and saving that cost in terms of inner triangles and alpha effects in terms of artifacts around the edges thats why its cleaner sharper image than ps4pro"

 

[Allandor]

nxgamer guessing its not cb on ps5 "ps5 looks to be rendering at native resolution and saving that cost in terms of inner triangles and alpha effects in terms of artifacts around the edges thats why its cleaner sharper image than ps4pro"

I really hope this is due to youtube compression, but the outdoor scenes look so outdated. It reminds me of skyrim with all those "cheap" alpha-texture plants.

I would still guess they use CB rendering for the PS5 version, too. Just with a bit higher base-resolution.

 

[BRiT]

Having a higher frame rate, say 60fps vs 30fps would also help a lot of the temporal reconstructions techniques.

 

[snc]

I really hope this is due to youtube compression, but the outdoor scenes look so outdated. It reminds me of skyrim with all those "cheap" alpha-texture plants.

its not bad looking game but outdoor folliage is terrible

 

[Shortbread]

nxgamer guessing its not cb on ps5 "ps5 looks to be rendering at native resolution and saving that cost in terms of inner triangles and alpha effects in terms of artifacts around the edges thats why its cleaner sharper image than ps4pro"

It could be DRR/CBR combination. The game maintains 4K in most instances and reconstructs (i.e., CBR) when falling below 4K.

 

[iroboto]

nxgamer guessing its not cb on ps5 "ps5 looks to be rendering at native resolution and saving that cost in terms of inner triangles and alpha effects in terms of artifacts around the edges thats why its cleaner sharper image than ps4pro"

yea I'm just gonna wait on DF there. Seems conflicting at least. I think all platforms, except PC is CBR. That's just my thought on that however.

Not that it matters of course. The only thing that matters is that image quality is good. And if CBR is close to native, looks like native, more power to it. It's plenty unfair to developers to tell them to push the limits of graphics and when they develop new techniques to save computation, suddenly punch them for not using native res.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

It could be DRR/CBR combination. The game maintains 4K in most instances and reconstructs (i.e., CBR) when falling below 4K.

I've often wondered if we might see something like that. For example "1: render white squares of checkerboard" "2: render full resolution" "3: render black squares if checkerboard" "4: render full resolution" etc.

Have we had many analyses of checkerboard rendering? Death Stranding's wasn't very good, with lots noticeable shimmering (which is a shame because it's beautiful otherwise.) God of War's is great, but because it's so good, there's no perceptible difference between 30 & 60 FPS.

That being said, I haven't watched the two modes side by side. Maybe I should record them and see. Can that be done in Sharefactory, does anyone here know? I've never used it before.

 

[cwjs]

I can't imagine NXgamer would be wrong about cbr. It's a little harder to tell on youtube videos, but its extremely easy to spot cbr in any game, so I would hope he knows what he's talking about. Its a great technique but its not like it can magically get infinitely better (unless its a dlss-like approach, but that would be marketed).

 

[iroboto]

I can't imagine NXgamer would be wrong about cbr. It's a little harder to tell on youtube videos, but its extremely easy to spot cbr in any game, so I would hope he knows what he's talking about. Its a great technique but its not like it can magically get infinitely better (unless its a dlss-like approach, but that would be marketed).

The thing about DF, in this case, is that they have an option to pick up the phone and just straight shot ask. Which is pretty much what I'm going to wait on to see what they say ultimately. I don't think Capcom would deny them the answers on the rendering method: they have good history here.

 

[Globalisateur]

It could be DRR/CBR combination. The game maintains 4K in most instances and reconstructs (i.e., CBR) when falling below 4K.

That does seem very complicated, too complicated, and I think you would easily notice something going wrong with the image each times you'd swap between native 4K and CBR 4K. The answer at this problem is most likely much more simple that this. I think they use the same reconstruction method (probably some kind of CBR, but you never know) they used in RE3 on both mid-gen machines. And that method was already mistook for native res by Digital foundry.

About the Pro in quality mode being of less quality it could come from elsewhere, like using a much lower quality TAA method and / or LQ motion blur.

 

[Shortbread]

That does seem very complicated, too complicated, and I think you would easily notice something going wrong with the image each times you'd swap between native 4K and CBR 4K. The answer at this problem is most likely much more simple that this. I think they use the same reconstruction method (probably some kind of CBR, but you never know) they used in RE3 on both mid-gen machines. And that method was already mistook for native res by Digital foundry.

About the Pro in quality mode being of less quality it could come from elsewhere, like using a much lower quality TAA method and / or LQ motion blur.

I was thinking of a far better DRS\CBR implementation than what Square-Enix provided for PS5 Marvel's Avengers.

BRiT is more than likely right about PS5 possibly still using CBR without the tell-tale signs of its usage as seen in the Pro edition. Higher framerates can improve overall visual clarity (perception), especially with high-frequency details that can often look washed or less visible at lower framerates (30fps). This would also explain why PS5 4K imagery looks cleaner than Pro's 4K imagery, simply because PS5 has a higher framerate in quality mode, and possibly the reason why NX Gamer came to that conclusion.

Then again, NX Gamer could be right. Since all of the systems are using the same assets (minus RT on the prior generation) and the visual quality is a match across all systems as mentioned by John, this would in-effect mean PS5/XBSX are simply running RE8 in native 4K (rather CBR) because of the additional headroom and performance these systems offer.

I can’t remember if John or Alex finding a lower pixel count in the first RE8 Maiden demo. Does anyone remember?

 

[Globalisateur]

I was thinking of a far better DRS\CBR implementation than what Square-Enix provided for PS5 Marvel's Avengers.

BRiT is more than likely right about PS5 possibly still using CBR without the tell-tale signs of its usage as seen in the Pro edition. Higher framerates can improve overall visual clarity (perception), especially with high-frequency details that can often look washed or less visible at lower framerates (30fps). This would also explain why PS5 4K imagery looks cleaner than Pro's 4K imagery, simply because PS5 has a higher framerate in quality mode, and possibly the reason why NX Gamer came to that conclusion.

Then again, NX Gamer could be right. Since all of the systems are using the same assets (minus RT on the prior generation) and the visual quality is a match across all systems as mentioned by John, this would in-effect mean PS5/XBSX are simply running RE8 in native 4K (rather CBR) because of the additional headroom and performance these systems offer.

I can’t remember if John or Alex finding a lower pixel count in the first RE8 Maiden demo. Does anyone remember?

AFAIK there is no DRS on either RE3 or RE8.

I am pretty sure it's reconstructed because native wouldn't make sense with the metrics of RE3 / RE8 performance / res on mid-gen and next gen compared to their respective power.

More specifically when comparing PS5 RT off (locked 60fps) vs Pro res mode (min 28fps), and knowing the game is not CPU limited even on Pro (because the high fps mode is stable 60fps on Pro), native 4K on PS5 would mean PS5 pushes more than 4.3x the pixels than Pro when we know the gap should be about 2.5x.

 

[Shortbread]

AFAIK there is no DRS on either RE3 or RE8.

I am pretty sure it's reconstructed because native wouldn't make sense with the metrics of RE3 / RE8 performance / res on mid-gen and next gen compared to their respective power.

More specifically when comparing PS5 RT off (locked 60fps) vs Pro res mode (min 28fps), and knowing the game is not CPU limited even on Pro (because the high fps mode is stable 60fps on Pro), native 4K on PS5 would mean PS5 pushes more than 4.3x the pixels than Pro when we know the gap should be about 2.5x.

Yeah, more than likely it could just be CBR. Since XBSX has more compute, maybe native 4K for their edition.

 

[snc]

More specifically when comparing PS5 RT off (locked 60fps) vs Pro res mode (min 28fps), and knowing the game is not CPU limited even on Pro (because the high fps mode is stable 60fps on Pro), native 4K on PS5 would mean PS5 pushes more than 4.3x the pixels than Pro when we know the gap should be about 2.5x.

Mlb 21 is also not cpu demanding and yet ps4pro drops even in 1080 mode more than ps5 in 4k

 

[iroboto]

Yeah, more than likely it could just be CBR. Since XBSX has more compute, maybe native 4K for their edition.

If nxgamer can be fooled that he thinks it’s native; there’s no doubt they would leave it as CBR for all platforms except PC. Just leave it as parity and go. Consistent frame rate performance will matter here more than the marginal improvement of native over CBR; Capcom has already notified that the consoles cannot maintain 60fps lock with RT on.

 

[see colon]

Mlb 21 is also not cpu demanding and yet ps4pro drops even in 1080 mode more than ps5 in 4k

Aren't those drops in transitions and non-playable scenes with more players in the scenes, though? Those could easily be CPU limited, but the game at a whole is set up in a way where the CPU is kept under budget while player interaction is required.

 

[snc]

Aren't those drops in transitions and non-playable scenes with more players in the scenes, though? Those could easily be CPU limited, but the game at a whole is set up in a way where the CPU is kept under budget while player interaction is required.

xox has slightly better results than xss thats why this hypotesis, we also don't know how cpu demanding is re8

 

[cwjs]

How do you guys think this 'better cbr' would work? I cannot imagine any serious hobbyist getting fooled.

Some significant percentage of pixels aren't being drawn each frame. Afaik (maybe im wrong?) a huge factor in how good your cbr looks are how complete your motion vectors are and how well you check if they're invalid (by a depth mismatch or something -- in the case where the new pixel was occluded in the previous frame), but that still leaves the same obvious artifacts, just in more isolated (but predictable) portions of the screen.

Looks great, but extremely easy to spot if you're looking for it. I should hope nxgamer is at least good enough to notice.

Aren't those drops in transitions and non-playable scenes with more players in the scenes, though? Those could easily be CPU limited, but the game at a whole is set up in a way where the CPU is kept under budget while player interaction is required.

What, exactly, would the cpu be doing? calculating extremely complex rigs I guess? High end cpu only cloth sim? Incredibly unlikely, especially when we see very obvious expensive rendering changes that explain the framerate drop. Not you in particular, but people in this forum throw out 'cpu limited' a lot without any justification or explanation for why the cpu would be under load.

 

[snc]

How do you guys think this 'better cbr' would work? I cannot imagine any serious hobbyist getting fooled.

Some significant percentage of pixels aren't being drawn each frame. Afaik (maybe im wrong?) a huge factor in how good your cbr looks are how complete your motion vectors are and how well you check if they're invalid (by a depth mismatch or something -- in the case where the new pixel was occluded in the previous frame), but that still leaves the same obvious artifacts, just in more isolated (but predictable) portions of the screen.

Looks great, but extremely easy to spot if you're looking for it. I should hope nxgamer is at least good enough to notice.

NXGamer is ex game dev with years of experience so you can hide you concerns about his abilities. He noticed artifacts but he think its just not cbr but rather other performance tweak/reconstruction usage.

 

[PSman1700]

NXGamer is ex game dev with years of experience so you can hide you concerns about his abilities. He noticed artifacts but he think its just not cbr but rather other performance tweak/reconstruction usage.

NXgamer is quite similar to RGT. Usually its best to avoid 'youtubers' with platform bias.