A Generational Leap in Graphics [2020] *Spawn*

if last generation consoles are able to have it then it is not really a next-gen feature

In the age of programmable shaders - and even before that with fast CPUs - it's not about a single feature, in general terms, in isolation, being what determines "next gen". "Next gen" is a about the totality of what hardware allows, or that a new API allows to be accessed in newer hardware. Oh, and it's also about the asset pipeline as making use of features can often require assets (particularly materials) to be built or tuned for them.

"Next gen" is subjective, and in the hands of some almost arbitrary. For me it's probably when a game lands on new(ish) hardware that's giving results, and large scale employing expensive techniques, that are clearly above what "current gen" could do. That's open for debate, but I think CP2077 could well be such a game on the right hardware. The RT lighting is well beyond PS4 and X1, GCN and Maxwell.

Maybe for you it's about someone coining a phrase for a technique that you've not heard before, or a game not having a last gen version even if it could be done, or ... whatever. But if you're going to post compulsively in this topic talking down ideas about what makes something "next gen" for others, you need to be prepared to say what you think would make something "next gen". And not in vague terms. Be prepared to actually define it, and give specifics when asked.

You might be surprised just how many techniques could actually be pulled off - in some capacity - on old hardware.
 
I wonder what it would take to have proceduraly generated interiors for buildings, it would add a lot to the immersion to be able to enter the majority of them. Imagine looting every level of those skyscrapers.
 
I don't think anyone's really saying that the difference between RT on and off is the generation difference. Potentially transformative to the graphics perhaps, but on it's own, not a generational difference. It's the entire package. The base game is gorgeous even by non-massively dense open world standards, but exceptionally so for that genre. And when you add in the RT, then some people, including myself, are arguing that it's the first game that represents a true "taste" of what the next generation of games will look like.

Obviously this is entirely subjective so no-one can be right or wrong here, but to my eyes, those video's I posted earlier in the thread for example are a clear step above everything else I've see to date (although as some have already mentioned there are games which can compete in some ways like RDR2 or FS2020). Of course it will be surpassed soon enough. But just as the likes of Killzone Shadowfall were considered a clear step above what had come before (at least in the console space) when the PS4 launched, with the full knowledge that it would be rapidly exceeded, I don't see why CB2077 can't be shown the same consideration.



Yes but that's a best to best comparison. Cyberpunk is really a best to worst comparison. i.e. it's naturally being compared to the best of the outgoing generation, but being the (claimed) first visually "next gen" game, it's going to be sitting towards the bottom of the pile at the end of the gen. That doesn't mean it can't still be considered representative of next gen graphics though. Otherwise we'd have to say there is no such thing as next gen graphics until the very best examples are launched, several years into the console cycle. Some may well say that of course, and they wouldn't necessarily be wrong, because as I said, this is entirely subjective.
I think Far cry 3 and Battlefield 3/4 are good comparison points for Cyberpunk. Intermediary games that have some next gen features but are grounded in current gen. Shadowfall hit a fair bit higher for its time IMO.

I don't think Uncharted 4 is the best PS4 has to offer. I just chose it because its a direct sequel by the same developer and was their first ground up title for the new console. You could replace it with a myriad of titles. TLOU, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield etc. Just shows the difference I view to be a generational improvement.
 
https://ibb.co/7bvzQts
https://ibb.co/s2Ft6qT
https://ibb.co/t2T6Zf2
https://ibb.co/VQ4ttd7
https://ibb.co/Hzh07M6


so which cost 3000 euro in 2020, which cost 399 in 2020, 499 in 2020 and 399 in 2013?

This is an extremely disingenuous comparison. First of all, all of the screenshots a blurred and massively undersell the resolution difference between those platforms. Anyone claiming that 720p is indistinguishable from 4K is simply lying.

Second, these are stills and thus under represent the difference in framerate between the more expensive platform which can achieve 60fps with minimal compromises, and the cheapest platform which struggles to achieve 30fps.

Third, these are cherry picked instances which deliberately avoid the majority of the games scenes which do show the clear benefits of the improved lighting and effects. Things like this:


And finally, you're deliberately using extreme examples of the costs to try and re-enforce your point. A $3000 PC is not at all required to max out the game. You're still going to need tp spend much more on the PC than you would on the console. Potentially as much as 3x more to fully max it out at high resolutions, but exaggerating like that doesn't help your argument, it undermines it.
 
I think Far cry 3 and Battlefield 3/4 are good comparison points for Cyberpunk. Intermediary games that have some next gen features but are grounded in current gen. Shadowfall hit a fair bit higher for its time IMO.

Lets just agree to disagree on that.

I don't think Uncharted 4 is the best PS4 has to offer. I just chose it because its a direct sequel by the same developer and was their first ground up title for the new console. You could replace it with a myriad of titles. TLOU, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield etc. Just shows the difference I view to be a generational improvement.

I didn't mean the absolute best. I simply meant a standard bearer for the console generations graphics. Most people would still consider UC4 one of the best looking games on PS4 even if there are a few that are better looking. But all those games you mention came much later in the generation than the first 3 months.

When a new console launches, we generally get a slew of cross gen titles or remasters than look like shinier versions of last gen titles before we start getting games that look like they could only be run on next gen hardware, at least in their intended form. Other posters shakey claims to the contrary I believe that CB2077 maxed out the first example of such a game that we've had this gen (with the probably exception of FS2020). But those early next gen games are always exceeded later on in the generation by the true top tier standard bearers for the whole generation. I believe UC4 falls into that category even though graphics have been even further refined since.
 
Good catch. Honest question, imagine a hypothetical sequel. Should they use generational increase in performance to render reflections that don't disappear near the edges or should they use that for other stuff; what would have the most visual impact?

No, it was not a "catch".

I think we have found the crux in this debate.
I spotted that the INSTANT I pressed play.
Normal SSR anomalies.
You stated: "here is a video of the ground reflections which look simply perfect to me:"

You do not see the anomalies and I am kinda envious on you for not seeing those things.
I spot those kind of errors instantaneously.
But it does invalidate you from debating image quality...because you do not see the errors.
What you think is "perfect" is not...it is flawed.
Once you try raytraced reflections your brain cannot go back and be happy (mine cannot not for sure)

Once I tried AA...I could not live with jaggies anymore.
Once I tried RT reflections I can not live with Screen Space Reflections.
 
If you were to pauze the video when the player got in the car with Dex, would you have been able to see the difference?

as for HLJ; if you were to run CP2077 at the PS4 settings you would get 200fps easily on your system, that is without DLSS so all is good!

I could cry at the image quality...even if it was 200 FPS.
Ugly is ugly...no matter the FPS.
 
A racing game is not a first-person or third-person shooter game. I dont need Raytracing in a racing game. But playing Control or Cyberpunk or Battlefield 5 or Deliver us the Moon SSRs are one of the worst graphics implementation put into a game. Unfortunately SSRs are necessary for modern visuals. So i am relieved that with Raytracing there is a better option for SSRs and for overall better graphics.
 
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A racing game is not a first-person or third-person shooter game. I dont need Raytracing in a racing game. But playing Control or Cyberpunk or Battlefield 5 or Deliver us the Moon SSRs are one of the worst graphics implementation put into a game. Unfortunately SSRs are necessary for modern visuals. So i am relieved that with Raytracing there is a better option for SSRs and for overall better graphics.


I'll happily take RT in a racing game. Sure, why not? Would be great for day/night cycles.

But will I compare a racing game to an open world RPG? Obviously not.

This thread is people who haven't seen it themselves telling those who have seen it, that they're mistaken about its impact.
 
This thread is people who haven't seen it themselves telling those who have seen it, that they're mistaken about its impact.

True, I haven't seen the game beyond YouTube videos and its unfortunate compression. Paradoxically, I also haven't seen Watch Dogs Legion outside of YouTube compression. And yet, Watch Dogs Legion appears superior.

Another paradox; both games are available for PC and console. In both cases the PC game looks better, and yet, I'm still able to see that WD:L looks better.
 
I wonder what it would take to have proceduraly generated interiors for buildings, it would add a lot to the immersion to be able to enter the majority of them. Imagine looting every level of those skyscrapers.

Interestingly, one of the things that the crazily over ambitious Shenmue (2) on Dreamcast did was implement procedurally generated room layouts for flats in a couple of skyscrapers in Kowloon. Yu Suzuki talked about how they got an interior designer to give them some rules on how things might be laid out, then they turned that into an algorithm and it created layouts of chairs, tables, sofas, tvs, some kitchen stuff etc so that rooms looked a bit different and you could still navigate around them. It wasn't full procedural generation of everything, just layouts.

Unfortunately you didn't really do anything in the rooms, there were no people in them, there was no loot (that I ever found) and you just walked through the buildings looking for a couple of events. You didn't even need to go into these rooms. I think they probably developed the technology then didn't really have time to work it into the game in an important way (to their credit, they had scores of developers, no version control software, a bug database with data manually input and managed on an excel spreadsheet - it was the 90s!).

I think they did a similar thing with some of the forest scenery layout.

So yeah, what you're saying could be done and it could be cool. Just got to get the rules right, and you'd probably still need an artist and a tester to go over everything to check for look and function.
 
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