A Generational Leap in Graphics [2020] *Spawn*

It is unfair to look at the hair in Fifa 2021 and say: "the consoles are so far above the PC with that technology it's like a generational leap"

The hair technology is a clear step above current games. No-one is denying that. But in game FIFA 21 looks virtually indistinguishable between the PS4 and PS5. So as an overall package it's pretty difficult to claim it's a generational leap when most people probably wouldn't be able to tell which platform it's running on until there's a closeup of a player with long hair. I'm not taking anything away from the game, it looks gorgeous, especially the next gen console versions. But a generational leap over FIFA 2020 for example? That's a bit of a stretch.

Yet a lot of people compare CP2077 PC with consoles which are essentially running the same settings as 7 year old consoles which were considered outdated by those people when they released in 2013.

But the settings aren't the same though are they? Even without RT the PC is running at signifcantly higher settings across the board than the base consoles. And then RT on top of that is transformative.

And that's before you consider the fact of those last gen versions running at 720p or lower at sub 20fps. Any platform can run any game if you lower the settings and framerate enough.

Games like Call of Duty, Dirt 5, and other show that the next generation consoles can run the same settings as current "high end" (+1300 euro) PCs with frame rate being the only factor

This is simply not true. There are settings and resolution differences across the board in both games. It wouldn't take a current high end PC to run either of those games at the console settings just as it doesn't take more than an RTX2060S to run Watch Dogs Legion at the same settings as the PS5 or a 3060Ti to run Valhalla.

as they are "visually indistinguishable at normal viewing distances" (which is what Alex from DF is saying about the blurry DLSS artefacts; they are supposedly "visually indistinguishable at normal viewing distances" so that would apply to consoles as well I presume).

Whether you consider the differences noticeable is an entirely different question. Some people won't see a difference at all, and those same people may also see no difference between the Series S and the PS5 for example, or even the mid gen refreshes and the new gen consoles. But for those that do appreciate the extra detail, the extra image quality, and the extra frame rate, it's all there to be had - at a premium cost of course.

I think even the 2013 version of CP2077 looks great (aside from the bugs), and I don't doubt for a second that the eventual PS5 version will be "visually indistinguishable at normal viewing distances" from the PC version with RT effects and everything.

I think you need to prepare yourself for a disappointment in that regard. The PC pushes RT so hard that there's no way the PS5 is going to be able to produce a result that's visually indistinguishable. Just look at the Watch Dogs Legion differences, they're numerous and significant.

BTW the "visually indistinguishable at normal viewing distances" quote you keep referring back to isn't supposed to be about not seeing extra game effects at TV viewing distances, it's referring to image quality differences that require a full screen 4x zoom and side by side analysis to see. "Normal viewing distance" in PC terms could be 3 foot away from a 34" (or more) monitor which can potentially fill the majority of your field of vision.

Last gen poly counts, last gen hair, last gen clothing (though last gen we had better clothing in another open world game, unity) last gen LOD pop in. But next gen lighting, and a superb futuristic city design.

I think it's a bit silly to call out individual features as "next gen" or "last gen" without any kind of context. For example what was the average poly count for an open world RPG last gen? What will be the average this gen? What's the CB2077 average? Without those numbers there's no basis for making such a claim. No game is ever going to be trail blazing in every single area, even Crysis wasn't. But as an overall package, CB2077 is a clear step above the current standard of games which for my money at least makes it worthy of being labelled with that super ambiguous and subjective term; "Next Gen".
 
It means that at least Blueprint and Insomniac explained to Sony that they wanted to create the DS remake or Ratchet and Clank: Rift apart for the PS5 specification, instead of being hindered by the (120+ million install base) PS4 spec. And Jim Ryan agreed to this, knowing that both games could easily sell 10 millions each if they were also on PS4. Whereas it will take at least 3 years before any game is able to sell 10 million copies on PS5 only.

Demons soul's and Ratchet and Clank franchise aren't 10+ millions sellers. Ratchet and Clank PS4 was the best entry of the franchise and it reach 5 million units. It is between 5 and 10 millions unit but they aren't the best selling franchise.

Spiderman sold more than 20 millions games, HZD sold more than 10 millions maybe they are between 12 and 15 millions units. God of War is probably between 15 and 20 million units.

At release Spiderman sold more on PS5 than PS4, it will probably change before christmas. I am on holidays today and I try my luck in a GAME they said to me to wait 2021. They only have PS5 box. The woman laughs when I ask.:LOL:

I am sure some core gamer wait to have the new consoles to play the game. I bought TLOU2 and I wait to have a PS5 and a patch to continue to play it, same for Ghost of Tsushima.
 
The hair technology is a clear step above current games. No-one is denying that. But in game FIFA 21 looks virtually indistinguishable between the PS4 and PS5. So as an overall package it's pretty difficult to claim it's a generational leap when most people probably wouldn't be able to tell which platform it's running on until there's a closeup of a player with long hair. I'm not taking anything away from the game, it looks gorgeous, especially the next gen console versions. But a generational leap over FIFA 2020 for example? That's a bit of a stretch.
I do wonder what thought process led them to focus their efforts on something that will never be seen during gameplay.
 
CP2077 is a cross gen game with the character models, environments, AI logic, every single thing outside of the RT/lighting is designed to run on 2013 consoles with +- 1TF GPUs and netbook CPUs and 5.5GB of shared video/system memory...

Imagine how impressed you will be once actual next generation titles are developed?

CDPR did it "the right way" this time.
They made a game that was not held back due to consoles (unlike the Witcher 3 downgrade...due to consoles)
This means that PC owners can turn the image quality up to "11".
They then dropped features and/or scaled down features to shoehorn it into the less performing consoles and see the debacle of the PS4/Xbox One version...and the lackluster image quality to boot.
It might run like "RTX 2060" performance (with scaled DOWN raytracing) on the current gen consoles.
I my opinion they should never have tried to scale it down to the previous gen consoles, the should have set the low bar at PS5/Xbox Series X.

Add to that that AMD's raytracing performance is quite lacking compared to NVIDIA's and there is NO way a PS5 will come close to current gen RTX 3000 series performance.

I don't get how people assume that less than/half the performance hardware can match image quality at same resolution/FPS.
It simply does not compute! (pun intended)
 

Sure



With that I agree.

On the fur it looks amazing, but on Gerald it's best to turn it off IMO

Did you look at the specs of that PC he used in the video?
I did, because that video was a lag-feast and I know why now:

Computer Specs: OS = Windows 7 64 Bit
CPU = AMD AMD FX 8350 Black Edition ( Core Frequency 8 x 4.00GHz)
GPU = AMD Radeon HD 7970 3GB
RAM = 16GB Corsair 1866mhz Vengeance

You can sabotage a A/B comparison in many ways....
 
Strongly disagree. Hairworks didn't even look good in 2015. It managed to look worse than the standard hair in several scenarios.

Na, it was good. Much better than the standard hair for Geralt. In ingame cutscenes the quality was improved and the difference between this and Fifa 21 isnt as big as for example Raytracing in Control or Cyberpunk.
 
I think it's a bit silly to call out individual features as "next gen" or "last gen" without any kind of context. For example what was the average poly count for an open world RPG last gen? What will be the average this gen? What's the CB2077 average? Without those numbers there's no basis for making such a claim. No game is ever going to be trail blazing in every single area, even Crysis wasn't. But as an overall package, CB2077 is a clear step above the current standard of games which for my money at least makes it worthy of being labelled with that super ambiguous and subjective term; "Next Gen".

We can tell that things will get a lot better in the coming months/year by just comparing characters and environmental detail between base Xbox One and PC,they're the same. CP77 looks great, but i can't take it as a new overall benchmark when there is only one aspect of its graphics that is a clear step up other the concurrence for now, though it's an important one.

But that's just my personnal opinion.
 
On Demon's souls, They said they don't count the polygons of assets but seeing the wireframe they have nearly pixel size polygons. And Nanite is ready for 60 fps. The demo runs at 30 fps because of Lumen.

I think for some details we will reach pixel size polygon.
 

It's ps4 assets on ps5 let's say it's ps4 vs high end PC. It looks more like a remaster category than remake, that's why i don't see that "next gen leap"
 
On Demon's souls, They said they don't count the polygons of assets but seeing the wireframe they have nearly pixel size polygons. And Nanite is ready for 60 fps. The demo runs at 30 fps because of Lumen.
I think for some details we will reach pixel size polygon.

How would that be possible with the 'cross gen policy'?

For Xbox I believe, Halo Infinite 2 should be a better indication of Xbox performance.


It's ps4 assets on ps5 let's say it's ps4 vs high end PC. It looks more like a remaster category than remake, that's why i don't see that "next gen leap"

Are you sure that is with all details turned up on PC?
In that video the main difference looks to be the PC having worse frame rate, it should be much more clear in reality
 

It's ps4 assets on ps5 let's say it's ps4 vs high end PC. It looks more like a remaster category than remake, that's why i don't see that "next gen leap"

The two versions using the same assets is not proof of the game on PC being "last gen". As we've seen amply demonstrated, the last gen consoles are basically incapable of running the game with it's current graphics. That's probably the best evidence we have that CB2077 isn't a "last gen game with next gen lighting". Even without the "next gen lighting", and other settings scaled back, the last gen consoles can't run properly!
 
How would that be possible with the 'cross gen policy'?

For Xbox I believe, Halo Infinite 2 should be a better indication of Xbox performance.



Are you sure that is with all details turned up on PC?
In that video the main difference looks to be the PC having worse frame rate, it should be much more clear in reality

Again games will big sales will be cross gen like Horizon 2, Spiderman and probably God of War. In 2021, the benchmark will probably be set by a third party game.

Sony decided than the biggest franchise will be cross gen and some franchise with less sales like Ratchet and Clank or a Playstation exclusive soul's will be only on PS5.

The two versions using the same assets is not proof of the game on PC being "last gen". As we've seen amply demonstrated, the last gen consoles are basically incapable of running the game with it's current graphics. That's probably the best evidence we have that CB2077 isn't a "last gen game with next gen lighting". Even without the "next gen lighting", and other settings scaled back, the last gen consoles can't run properly!

Full triangle baed RT/hybrid rasterization is probably like SVOGI last gen a little bit early. triangle based RT is not performant on RDNA 2 GPU and AMD use less die area for RT than Nvidia.

I think Cyberpunk 2077 is mostly a RTX PC game not a console one, old generation or current generation. I think games developed with current generation in mind will do other technical choice because AMD triangle based RT is weak.

Epic is very pragmatic and they did the R&D with this console in mind and they saw triangle based RT performance is subpar and took another direction until AMD GPU will have enough triangle based RT performance to make it a priority on consoles. Unreal had implemented triangle based raytracing before Nanite or Lumen and at least on consoles it is not an option in UE5.

Same for CryEngine with an hybrid model with voxel based RT and triangle based RT.

We will see in the future but I think at least on consoles and AMD GPU, titles doing other compromise will look better than title using triangle based RT brigning the AMD GPU to its knees. This is different on RTX GPU with much better performance than AMD and current gen consoles GPU.

I am curious to see if studios do two builds one with triangle based RT on Nvdia PC GPU and one with alternative method for consoles and a bit of triangle based RT(one non GI effect at a time...). This is a possibility.
 
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The two versions using the same assets is not proof of the game on PC being "last gen". As we've seen amply demonstrated, the last gen consoles are basically incapable of running the game with it's current graphics. That's probably the best evidence we have that CB2077 isn't a "last gen game with next gen lighting". Even without the "next gen lighting", and other settings scaled back, the last gen consoles can't run properly!

In that video it appears the only device which "can't run properly!" is the PC version with its choppy frame rate. Is it an Intel PC with a 2060 non-super or something?

edit:

GPU: MSI RTX 3090 Gaming X Trio
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X (Stock)
Motherboard: MSI X570 Gaming Edge Wifi
RAM: G.Skill Trident Z Neo 2x16GB, 3600 CL16-16-16-36
CPU Cooler: Enermax Liqmax III 360
Case: Streacom BC1 Open Benchtable

Recorded with dual PC Setup Elgato Game Capture 4K60 Pro MK.2
PC graphics settings Resolution: 3840x2160 Graphics: Ultra Ray Tracing: Ultra DLSS: Quality


LMFAO! looks like +3000 euros well spent :rolleyes:
 
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