Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2020-2021] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[Deleted member 11852]

On Xbox, games released for Xbox One can be "aware" of different hardware. Cyberpunk is one of those games. So because the game is telling the system "I know you are a Series X, run this code path" but that code path isn't on the disc, it's in the update. Older games like Unity aren't aware of Series X, so they just work. But being aware give you advantages, like Series X performance and quality modes.

I see the advantage but flagging there is a better version available, but not giving you the option to play the version on disc you paid for? That's an odd design choice. Legally sticky as well potentially.

 

[Jay]

XSX|S is still not an online only machine or has to be connected to the net.
Therefore any physical game should be able to be run without needing a patch if it's the campaign or single player.

Even if it means it's not the best experience due to not getting patched.

 

[Shortbread]

In spite of NVIDIA's best efforts to coerce media into talking about DLSS and Ray Tracing, we're doing it because we actually want to. Bad timing from NVIDIA. This is #Cyberpunk2077's DLSS.

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - If Steve Blinks, NVIDIA is Holding Him Hostage
05:21 - Blind Comparisons
06:34 - Methodology
07:16 - Detail Loss & Upscaling Amounts
08:54 - Comparison Shots & Chromatic Aberration, Film Grain, DOF
09:54 - Shot 1 - DLSS Performance, Ultra Performance, Quality, vs. Off
10:40 - Broken DLSS in Some Areas Useful for Validation
11:10 - Pixel Counting to Prove the Resolution
12:10 - NVIDIA's Unfortunate Email Timing
13:53 - Shot 2 - Subtle Differences, On vs. Off Comparisons
14:19 - DLSS Sometimes is Better Than Native Resolution, But...
15:52 - Ghosting Caused by Temporal Anti-Aliasing
16:31 - Shot 3 - Broken Lighting Bug, Texture Detail Loss
17:54 - Shot 4 & 5 - DLSS Easily Noticed in Flora
18:31 - Shot 6 & 7 - On vs. Off Flickering & Unexpected Bonuses
19:07 - Shot 8 - Final DLSS Impact
19:25 - The NVIDIA Money Hand
20:00 - Conclusion, Our Thoughts, & Blind Comparison Recap

 

[see colon]

I see the advantage but flagging there is a better version available, but not giving you the option to play the version on disc you paid for? That's an odd design choice. Legally sticky as well potentially.

Yeah, this might be the down side to smart delivery

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Yeah, this might be the down side to smart delivery

Having your console let you download the best version/assets of your game for the best experience is a good idea. That is be separate from disallowing you from playing the game at all.

I wonder if this is something unique Microsoft did for Cyberpunk, I mean they must have seen the janky mess it was on base consoles, but equally they did nothing to stop people with base consoles from playing the same version. Huh?

 

[see colon]

Having your console let you download the best version/assets of your game for the best experience is a good idea. That is be separate from disallowing you from playing the game at all.

I wonder if this is something unique Microsoft did for Cyberpunk, I mean they must have seen the janky mess it was on base consoles, but equally they did nothing to stop people with base consoles from playing the same version. Huh?

Well it's not allowing you to play the shipped version because it knows it's not the best version. I mean, the disc version wasn't even finished really, was it? The day one patch fixed a host of issues and another patch came out days later that fixed more. I understand why someone would plant to play it that way for science, but not for any other reason.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well it's not allowing you to play the shipped version because it knows it's not the best version. I mean, the disc version wasn't even finished really, was it?

It was bigger than it is, which is a mind blower to begin with, but as we saw with leaked copies in early December, people were able to play the code on the disc with no updates on PS4/Pro, and Xbox One. But Xbox Series consoles refuse to run the game. Maybe it's just me, but this seems weird. Why only stop Xbox Series from playing the crappier version, but allows Xbox One players to experience it? Is this a nextgen Xbox feature? Garbage code prevention?

 

[liams]

It was bigger than it is, which is a mind blower to begin with, but as we saw with leaked copies in early December, people were able to play the code on the disc with no updates on PS4/Pro, and Xbox One. But Xbox Series consoles refuse to run the game. Maybe it's just me, but this seems weird. Why only stop Xbox Series from playing the crappier version, but allows Xbox One players to experience it? Is this a nextgen Xbox feature? Garbage code prevention?

For the series consoles the games are, as far as we know, recompiled to use the smash driver that the new consoles use, replacing the smash driver used for the xbox one family of consoles. This recompilation is done entirely on Microsofts end so its seamless but requires the new driver layer to be installed.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

For the series consoles the games are, as far as we know, recompiled to use the smash driver that the new consoles use, replacing the smash driver used for the xbox one family of consoles. This recompilation is done entirely on Microsofts end so its seamless but requires the new driver layer to be installed.

Are you sure? There are no other reports are games flat out not running without a patch and there is still the case of Assassin's Creed Unity to consider where the unlocked frame-rate testing could only be done with the unpatched v1.0 of the game. I accept that much of Xbox's backwards compatibility is marketing smoke and mirrors; Xbox One/Series consoles cannot play original Xbox or 360 titles at all, it requires that phenomenal backroom effort by Microsoft to do a ton of work but this is the first instance of a Xbox One game flat out not working without a patch on Xbox Series.

 

[Shortbread]

Marvel's Spider-Man Remastered PS5 frame rate test showing the framerate/fps on PlayStation 5 using the Performance RT Mode.

The version tested was 1.002.000.

Performance RT Mode uses a dynamic resolution with the highest native resolution found being 2560x1440 and the lowest native resolution found being 1920x1080.

Performance RT Mode uses a form of temporal upsampling to reconstruct a 3840x2160 resolution.

The ray-traced reflections in Performance RT Mode have some cutbacks compared to Fidelity Mode such as removed shadows and reduced shadow quality for the remaining shadows http://bit.ly/3akjdZb

Occasionally a frame can drop while web-slinging http://bit.ly/34iCGW4

Stats: http://bit.ly/38bh7Im
Frames Pixel Counted: http://bit.ly/2KdljPF

 

[AzBat]

I don't think it's the first instance. I believe it happened with all the 1st party games that were getting a "Optimized for Series X|S" update.

As I don't have any disc games I can't test it out.

Tommy McClain

 

[see colon]

Are you sure? There are no other reports are games flat out not running without a patch and there is still the case of Assassin's Creed Unity to consider where the unlocked frame-rate testing could only be done with the unpatched v1.0 of the game. I accept that much of Xbox's backwards compatibility is marketing smoke and mirrors; Xbox One/Series consoles cannot play original Xbox or 360 titles at all, it requires that phenomenal backroom effort by Microsoft to do a ton of work but this is the first instance of a Xbox One game flat out not working without a patch on Xbox Series.

Before launch, when media/youtubers were getting consoles, a few commented that Gears 5 just wouldn't work because it needed an update or something. I think all of the enhanced games at launch needed an update.

 

[Nisaaru]

I accept that much of Xbox's backwards compatibility is marketing smoke and mirrors; Xbox One/Series consoles cannot play original Xbox or 360 titles at all, it requires that phenomenal backroom effort by Microsoft to do a ton of work but this is the first instance of a Xbox One game flat out not working without a patch on Xbox Series.

There is a wide range of emulation methods depending on the goals you have. There are emulators which try to achieve cycle correct behaviour to emulation concepts whose goal is to achieve the best overall experience.

Then you need to get really creative, use technics which can't be used generic but are custom tuned to speed up most paths/games. You also make compromises.

From static, jit to pre-translation(which Xbox apparently uses and is the best approach in their situation). Then you replace often used cpu/gpu sequences vs. native code like replacing "standard libraries" from compilers, 3rd party middleware and game companies itself might use with your native versions. Maybe add HW support which helps you with some stuff.

It's all a mixture of things where the end result matters. Calling this "smoke & mirrors" really misses the complexity of the problem. I'm pretty sure that nobody at Xbox wants to con somebody about the "nature" of their approach.

IMHO most people who never worked on these things personally have only a very generic idea about the details even if they have some computer related degree. This requires real world experience.

P.S. Never worked for MS but I did similar bootstrapping OS/App, cpu emulation and JIT work.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Before launch, when media/youtubers were getting consoles, a few commented that Gears 5 just wouldn't work because it needed an update or something. I think all of the enhanced games at launch needed an update.

I think it was @BRiT that said that this was intentional and Microsoft were limiting the backwards compatibility prior to launch?

It's surely not case that PS5 will just play any PS4 game, whether on disc or from the digital library without any updates, but Xbox Series needs Microsoft to patch/update every game!?! I get it for 360 and original Xbox games, the OS and hardware is in no way compatible, but Xbox One to Xbox Series?

 

[BRiT]

I really think a lot of this is very situational and they would be able to play Xbox One BC titles (physical and digital) that have SeriesX optimizations available online if they know how to manage the offline mode of the console. Since I have yet to see an organized and controlled environment test being done, I can't offer any additional comments other than people making too much out of sloppy and incomplete reporting and testing.

 

[Riddlewire]

Wasn't particularly impressed by this video.
Was hoping for XSS also, and more talk about the technical aspect of the dlc.

Maybe things like due to the new location how the new GI improves things on current gen compared to previous etc

Ok. Maybe this'll do.

 

[Shortbread]

That Luniz reference...

 

[Shortbread]

- The main character model appeared without some details at the beginning of the game and this problem has been fixed.
- The lighting quality on Xbox One has been lowered.
- Some reflections have been fixed / improved in all versions.
- Average resolution has increased on all platforms.

- Xbox One has lowered the quality of shadows. One X and Series S have also dropped the quality, but it is hardly noticeable.
- The textures have not undergone changes.
- Performance has improved in all versions a lot, except Series X.
- The draw distance in the texture and shadow LOD seems to have lowered its quality in all versions.
- The number of NPCs corresponding to each version remains the same.

 

[Globalisateur]

If they lowered the quality of effects on PS4, it means PS5 should have its settings reduced.

I think it was @BRiT that said that this was intentional and Microsoft were limiting the backwards compatibility prior to launch?

It's surely not case that PS5 will just play any PS4 game, whether on disc or from the digital library without any updates, but Xbox Series needs Microsoft to patch/update every game!?! I get it for 360 and original Xbox games, the OS and hardware is in no way compatible, but Xbox One to Xbox Series?

With patch 1.05 do you notice reduced quality of shadows, lighting or LOD on PS5?

 

[BRiT]

It's surely not case that PS5 will just play any PS4 game, whether on disc or from the digital library without any updates, but Xbox Series needs Microsoft to patch/update every game!?! I get it for 360 and original Xbox games, the OS and hardware is in no way compatible, but Xbox One to Xbox Series?

Yes, you are correct that updates are not required to play Xbox One games on Series consoles.

So to add on to my earlier reply and to make it perfectly clear, to play Xbox One games on Series X you do not need updates. I am checking the file info from a few of my older games to check installation date and update dates after I loaded them to make sure they still work. Updated shows "N/A" if the game has not been updated on that particular console. Install date shows the last time it was moved to that physical media, so if I move from 1 drive to another that will be updated.

Crimson Dragons: installed = 2018-07-05, updated = N/A, xdk, durango, Xbox one
Crackdown 3: installed = 2019-02-29, updated = N/A, xdk, durango, Xbox Scorpio
Forza Horizon 3: installed = 2018-07-05, updated = N/A, xdk, durango, Xbox one
Gears of War 4: installed = 2018-07-05, updated = N/A, xdk, durango, Xbox Scorpio
Halo 5 Guardians, installed = 2018-05-18, updated = N/A, xdk, durango, Xbox Scorpio


Now for a game I know have been updated to support newer DLC etc:

Minecraft Dungeons: installed = 2020-06-07, updated = 2020-12-17, xdk, durango, Xbox One


And a title which has updated to be Series X aware but not being GDK shows the following:

Forza Horizon 4: installed = 2020-11-10, updated = 2020-12-17, xdk Gen9 Aware, Scarlett, Xbox Anaconda

I really think a lot of this is very situational and they would be able to play Xbox One BC titles (physical and digital) that have SeriesX optimizations available online if they know how to manage the offline mode of the console. Since I have yet to see an organized and controlled environment test being done, I can't offer any additional comments other than people making too much out of sloppy and incomplete reporting and testing.