Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2020]

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Well, that isn't really too surprising considering they aren't writing a devkit API suite that has to accommodate for a wide range of hardware configurations. There's PS5 and that's pretty much it, though it might be arguable that the PS4 falls into that bracket too since PS5's suite is essentially PS4's with a lot of newer things added on top (according to a few devs).

We know this was the case for PS4, which inevitably involved a bunch of PS4/Pro GPU logic being worked into PS5's GPU. This is not an effective long-term solution if they wish to carry forward backwards compatibility to PS6 so there is very likely a fatter API for native PS5 games. They will surely have learned this the hard way, relying on hardware compatibility may have worked for this generational jump but it may not next generation.
 
DF Article @ https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-spider-man-remastered-tech-analysis

Marvel's Spider-Man Remastered: substantial enhancements vs PS4 Pro - plus ray tracing at 60fps
An excellent revamp of a classic game.

While Spider-Man: Miles Morales was a key launch title for PlayStation 5, the next-gen remaster of the webslinger's first outing is well worth checking out. This isn't just the PS4 Pro version operating at a higher resolution: there's a bunch of visual improvements from new assets, refined lighting and of course, the addition of hardware-accelerated ray tracing. Indeed, a recent patch has added support for RT at 60 frames per second - an enhancement present on both of the Spider-Man titles available for PS5. Developer Insomniac has also solved the issue of transferring save data across from the original PS4 game, making this is an excellent way to continue the story if you never finished the game.

Despite the last-gen foundations, the boosts delivered by PlayStation 5 are impressive. The original PS4 Pro version targets 30 frames per second with dynamic resolution scaling averaging around 1584p most of the time - temporal injection is then used to deliver a clean image when played on a 4K display. On PS5, there are three different visual presentations offer: the quality mode bumps this up to a full native 4K output most of the time though dynamic resolution scaling is in effect and it can drop to near 1512p levels in the worst case. In performance mode, the game targets a near 4K resolution but with more aggressive DRS that results in drops to 1440p. Quality holds up though, thanks in no small part to the same temporal injection technology that worked so well on the last-gen systems.

All of which makes the new ray traced performance mode even more interesting. Just how much of a hit is required to deliver hardware RT at 60 frames per second? Well, it's about more than just a resolution cut but suffice to say that the DRS window is adjusted downwards - lower bounds can hit a minimum of 1080p, but the vast majority of the experience plays out towards a 1440p upper bounds. It's also worth pointing out that the same stats are in play for Miles Morales, which also gets the same three presentation modes. In effect, the PS5 effect is quite remarkable: up against PS4 Pro, you're getting twice the frame-rate, plus hardware ray tracing with just a small haircut on resolution.

...
 
We know this was the case for PS4, which inevitably involved a bunch of PS4/Pro GPU logic being worked into PS5's GPU. This is not an effective long-term solution if they wish to carry forward backwards compatibility to PS6 so there is very likely a fatter API for native PS5 games. They will surely have learned this the hard way, relying on hardware compatibility may have worked for this generational jump but it may not next generation.

Honestly you'd think they'd of learned of it going with BC on PS3. Part of the reason the system's price was so high (aside the Blu-Ray drive) was the cost of putting older PS2 chips directly in the system. It just becomes too cost-prohibitive at a certain point, even if those chips are serving other functions when not running BC. There's also a point where bringing in too much legacy hardware forward to new designs can impair utilization of newer paradigm shifts, lest the manufacturer just eat the costs.

Sega were actually pretty keen on bringing forward older tech repurposed for new tasks in their consoles while providing some form of BC and programming familiarity. However, it was more cost-friendly to do that back in the day and consoles as a whole had more unique architectures that could design a lot of custom things around older (and increasingly standard) chips. Although it even bit them in the ass when the Saturn came around; part of the reasons they went with dual SH2s was to keep familiarity with the 32X, but the reason they went with dual SH2s in the 32X was because they decided to put two of them in the Saturn! They really should've just gone with a single SH-3 and delayed Saturn a year and cancelled the 32X, but anyway...

Software-based BC ultimately, I agree that'll be the way to go. But there's always something which'll be interesting from a programming POV in leveraging hardware-based BC that can't be matched from the outside looking in. For example the way some devs on the Saturn used the Yamaha audio chip for graphics, that's something the Shining Force III team did. It has me interested to see what ways some devs on PS5 will be able to leverage Tempest, however limited, for a bit of additional graphics or async compute side work (and similar things but to a lesser extent on the Microsoft systems). Doubt it will be anything significant but I'd love to hear of a team or two who get creative with that part of the hardware later in the generation.
 
Software-based BC ultimately, I agree that'll be the way to go. But there's always something which'll be interesting from a programming POV in leveraging hardware-based BC that can't be matched from the outside looking in. For example the way some devs on the Saturn used the Yamaha audio chip for graphics, that's something the Shining Force III team did. It has me interested to see what ways some devs on PS5 will be able to leverage Tempest, however limited, for a bit of additional graphics or async compute side work (and similar things but to a lesser extent on the Microsoft systems). Doubt it will be anything significant but I'd love to hear of a team or two who get creative with that part of the hardware later in the generation.

You didnt even name the PS2 in that part of your text..... Amazing what devs did there with the exotic alien hardware it had. Devs here on the forum explained all their workarounds and tricks to gain that extra performance or effects.... just fun to read. SotC did some impressive SH lighting and fur effects.
Some devs used VU0 to achieve 4 channel DTS audio too.

I guess that with PS5 and XSX we wont see as much of that though. Game development is as costly as it is already. We kinda moved away from those days for a reason.
 
Perhaps someone'll get ambitious and fold in some accelerated low-precision DirectML into their shader code.. (Assuming they have some compute headroom that's not being utilized effectively on multiplats)
It might require Microsoft to make it especially easy to implement, but maybe they'll put in the effort, to gain some advantage for their hardware.

That's what I miss. The short, pie-in-the-sky tech demos, that try to utilize every potential graphical trick in the book.. Mesh-Shaders, SFS, etc..
Like, what could a scene look like on PS5, if you actually DID swap out the entirety of texture assets in RAM, before the player could turn around in a room or area?
Maybe things that couldn't be done practically in a game, (but give an idea of the possibilities, if / when..).
 
insomniac is top tier studio, I checked this rt 60fps mode and it's still sharp so they have very good reconstruction technique (it's sharper than demon souls 1440p mode)
 
You didnt even name the PS2 in that part of your text..... Amazing what devs did there with the exotic alien hardware it had. Devs here on the forum explained all their workarounds and tricks to gain that extra performance or effects.... just fun to read. SotC did some impressive SH lighting and fur effects.
Some devs used VU0 to achieve 4 channel DTS audio too.

I guess that with PS5 and XSX we wont see as much of that though. Game development is as costly as it is already. We kinda moved away from those days for a reason.

I'd be interested to read up on some of those posts if you've got any links to them; about a couple months ago a (really small, but really good) Youtube channel, Zygal Studios, did a general overview of PS2 architecture and the way it's broken down highlighted how esoteric the system actually was, even in comparison to other 6th-gen systems like OG Xbox and Gamecube.

Agreed that none of the next-gen systems will offer that level of flexibility in using parts of the design beyond intended means, a main reason being budgets, as you've already mentioned. But if systems like PS5 are successful in scaling down the time needed for game development, provided there are devs who don't use the extra allotted time to increase the scope of frivolous production values, spin up more content from pre-existing material, or non-technical things (writing more game scenarios), maybe some of them will take extra time to fiddle with certain hardware features in creative ways to produce results outside of the usual.

...or maybe not :p . If devs want their games to be forward-compatible with future systems, it's probably better of them not to rely on exploiting quirks in the architectures at low levels since it's never guaranteed the next line of hardware will allow for those same quirks to exist, let alone exploitation of them being possible. That kind of niftiness, sadly, it's a quick way to either make software locked to a single platform or require significant re-coding to run at similar levels on the newer, different architecture. Kind of sucks this is mainly relegated to homebrew for older consoles these days, though some of those people, they've produced some amazing things thought impossible on that older hardware.
 
Perhaps someone'll get ambitious and fold in some accelerated low-precision DirectML into their shader code.. (Assuming they have some compute headroom that's not being utilized effectively on multiplats)
It might require Microsoft to make it especially easy to implement, but maybe they'll put in the effort, to gain some advantage for their hardware.

That's what I miss. The short, pie-in-the-sky tech demos, that try to utilize every potential graphical trick in the book.. Mesh-Shaders, SFS, etc..
Like, what could a scene look like on PS5, if you actually DID swap out the entirety of texture assets in RAM, before the player could turn around in a room or area?
Maybe things that couldn't be done practically in a game, (but give an idea of the possibilities, if / when..).

I really think MS should've had a demo like around or shortly after the UE5 demo on PS5 because that demo was something else. Just a really cool demo, even if the chances of it coming to fruition will only happen with maybe 5% of all games this gen, and only big 1P titles at that.

Even though it's a way different artstyle, I think the new Ratchet & Clank will be the closest to that demo in terms of an actual game, once it finally releases. Great geometry density, pixel density, top-notch animation, clean IQ etc. Insomniac are definitely one of the studios to keep an eye on for this gen from any company, which means a lot considering I have a lot of worries about Naughty Dog dropping off next-gen (just look at all talent that's already left and overall bad corporate studio culture when it comes to things like crunch...not that devs like CD Projekt are much better, and 343i are probably still a mess at their top management & pipeline though the update is a big improvement hopefully reflective of studio as a whole).

Maybe MS thought that metal robot demo with AMD back in March (or was it April) was that type of showcase, particularly for RT, but that demo was gaudy as hell. They needed something closer to the 2nd demo AMD put out a couple weeks ago, running on Series X. But, it's water under the bridge at this point; the time's been passed.

We can hope future releases play moreso to the system's fuller potential. The Hivebusters content looks fantastic, solid step in right direction. Will be interesting to see how FS2020 translates to Series systems in Summer. I'm expecting games like Scorn, Exo-Mecha and Bright Memory Infinite to be strong visual showcases as well (and hopefully also really good/fun games to play of course). Same for Forza Horizon 5. And the latest Halo Infinite screens were a huge improvement over the July stuff, but I still think they need to reconsider those pillar designs, they stick out a bit too much. Should make them fit in more organically or, if it's really something for thematic reasons, have fewer of them but make them bigger.

In any case they'll need those games to deliver given what Sony have on deck for next year with Ratchet & Clank, GT7, Forbidden West, maybe Ragnarok, etc.
 
Yeah, exactly. Especially since they don't have any games showing the potential of much of anything they talked about.. SFS sounds cool. Mesh Shaders? Awesome. I'll go check out the Nvidia astroid demo..

I wonder how hard it would've been to just convince devs to bulk license the PC variants of their games to Microsoft, for use on Xbox.. I mean, that way they could exploit the hardware any way possible for the current console, and have the fallback methods from PC to use for BC in the following generation. So next-gen, many of their games'll technically play the PC variant, but using the ultra-high texture resolutions and model details that the assets were created at.

No need for fancy processing methods to enhance last gen games. They just use a PC variant turned up to 11.
 
^So, if a developer finds some fancy way to finesse some graphical effect into their game that's very hardware specific, or is all tied up in the code itself, to pull off something that they wouldn't normally have the power to do.. Next-gen, they'd just use the full-fledged effect.. So if you were to find an elaborate way to get an effect using lower bit depth, (HDR or something) the next gen BC version would just use the full bit-depth variant of the PC.

But then I guess, people'll be wanting 8K and other enhancements. (VR maybe?) And next-gen won't have enough power to be able to brute-force current-gen games.
 
I'd be interested to read up on some of those posts if you've got any links to them; about a couple months ago a (really small, but really good) Youtube channel, Zygal Studios, did a general overview of PS2 architecture and the way it's broken down highlighted how esoteric the system actually was, even in comparison to other 6th-gen systems like OG Xbox and Gamecube.

Hm, try to search for 'fafalada', he was a actual PS2 dev commenting and praising the platform alot, but also describing it weaknesses. Many devs took part in discussions back then here. The usual console wars existed too but, intresting (and fun) reads still.

I think the new Ratchet & Clank will be the closest to that demo in terms of an actual game

From what we have seen, quite far from it. Then again, UE5 was just that, a tech demo, without any game logic and quite barebones. Its a quick demo to showoff the new UE5 engine, all for marketing purposes for EPIC.

Forbidden West, maybe Ragnarok, etc.

I think those are on PS4 too, not sure.

people'll be wanting 8K

Hold on, even 4k is still a resource hog :p
 
I really think MS should've had a demo like around or shortly after the UE5 demo on PS5 because that demo was something else.

The demo was Epic's doing rather than Sony. Demod like this are cool but you can't just conjure them out of nowhere unless you have an in-house studio with an unannounced game leveraging cutting-edge tech that you can blow everybody away with. Sony didn't have anything like this either ;-)
 
Actually R&C did impress a lot of people with its changing worlds thing. It is one thing to try and fake it with storing 2 worlds at the same time, it is another thing to show something where you can jump to multiple different worlds within less than 3s.

Doesn't Cyberpunk do the same thing in one of the early intro scenes? DF covered it in one of their video's assuming it was pre-rendered at first then realising it was real time. The main charracter instantly transitions between, multiple different scenes in the game. Granted there isn't as much variety as the R&C environments show from what I remember (I can't find the video now), but they are both faster and more numerous. I can only assume that all the necessary data was already stored in VRAM.
 
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