Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2020]

[hughJ]

Great video as always. Insomniac's SM:MM RT solution looks damn impressive for a first next-generation game. Funny how 2yrs back, the vast majority of people thought RT wasn't going to be a thing on the next-generation of consoles, especially on AMD based hardware. Now here we are...

I think it speaks more to the quality of artists and traditional raster techniques that ray-tracing can be used this sparingly and the final result be celebrated as an achievement for RT.

 

[techuse]

Better than Hellblade 2?

I don’t consider that Hellblade 2 footage to be legit. Under the assumption it is, i do find it quite a bit better than Horizon 2.

 

[Globalisateur]

Better than Hellblade 2?

Hellblade 2 was in-engine footage. They never said it was running real-time on an actual hardware, much less on a XSX.

As far as we know, it was CGI.

 

[cheapchips]

Hellblade 2 was in-engine footage. They never said it was running real-time on an actual hardware, much less on a XSX.

As far as we know, it was CGI.

All videogames games are CGI.

One thing about the plausababiily of HB2's graphics that DF mentioned was just the amount of geometry and total lack of lod issues. That looks a lot more feasible now that we've seen UE5. And yet we're all hedging our bets still. Myself included...

My optimistic fantasy is that they were offline rendering in UE4. They'll turn on Nanite/Lumin and we'll be there in real time.

 

[jlippo]

I don’t consider that Hellblade 2 footage to be legit. Under the assumption it is, i do find it quite a bit better than Horizon 2.

Indeed, horizon has some classic problems here and there.
I'm sure it will get better, though.

 

[Remij]

Hellblade 2 was in-engine footage. They never said it was running real-time on an actual hardware, much less on a XSX.

As far as we know, it was CGI.

Didn't an Epic presentation reveal that Hellblade 2 was real-time? Senua's Hellblade 2 model was shown together with other high-fidelity real-time realistic characters that run in real-time with Unreal Engine. They made a point of mentioning that UE is unrivaled when it comes to advanced real-time character rendering.

And comparing Hellblade 2 to Horizon 2... let's not forget that one is an open world game, and the other, for all we know, will be a more linear driven game like the previous Hellblade.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Globalisateur]

Didn't an Epic presentation reveal that Hellblade 2 was real-time? Senua's Hellblade 2 model was shown together with other high-fidelity real-time realistic characters that run in real-time with Unreal Engine. They made a point of mentioning that UE is unrivaled when it comes to advanced real-time character rendering.

And comparing Hellblade 2 to Horizon 2... let's not forget that one is an open world game, and the other, for all we know, will be a more linear driven game like the previous Hellblade.

We'll just have to wait and see.

AFAIK they never said it was real-time, only in-engine.

 

[Shortbread]

Hellblade 2 was in-engine footage. They never said it was running real-time on an actual hardware, much less on a XSX.

As far as we know, it was CGI.

I believe the footage was real-time in-engine footage running slightly above 1600p @24fps (for Cinematic reasons) on XBSX spec'd PC hardware. There is a certain amount of real-time aliasing and pixel crawl going on in certain scenes similar to the original real-time in-engine reveal of Uncharted 4: A Theif's End where Drake is waking up on a beach.

 

[zed]

I just watched hellblade 2 trailer the most impressive part is

specifically the high polygon count, the thing is how far does this stretch, i.e if I put the camera at headheight and not down low to the ground(*), like it is in this shot, how far can you see with this detail?

A lot of the other stuff takes place in the dark with lights ( which makes things look better than compared to full daylight )

is the above screenshot so far removed from this unity demo from a couple of years ago?

(*)though perhaps the characters are only 10cm tall

 

[techuse]

Are in-engine trailers ever representative of the actual game?

Wasn't this claimed to be realtime, in-engine footage? The final game barely resembles that.

 

[Jay]

I think it speaks more to the quality of artists and traditional raster techniques that ray-tracing can be used this sparingly and the final result be celebrated as an achievement for RT.

I agree with artists etc.
But I'm of the opinion that hybrid or layered approach is the way forward this gen at least.

So it's easily possible to be a good reflection implementation even if not fully RT.
Faked and traditional approaches if it works well for 90% of the image, and you only need to RT the final 10% where traditional breaks down that's a win.
Then you can use the RT or gpu budget on other things.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

(*)though perhaps the characters are only 10cm tall

Really impressive video however I was really thrown off with regards to the shadows moving some of the time as if time warped and moved really fast. It happened a few times in the video and is really off putting. Otherwise everything else looked really good.

 

[chris1515]

Are in-engine trailers ever representative of the actual game?

Wasn't this claimed to be realtime, in-engine footage? The final game barely resembles that.

In engine can means anything same for in engine Halo Infinite trailer or Uncharted 4 teaser trailer or the Witcher 3 first trailer. I prefer wait gameplay trailer.

 

[Globalisateur]

I believe the footage was real-time in-engine footage running slightly above 1600p @24fps (for Cinematic reasons) on XBSX spec'd PC hardware. There is a certain amount of real-time aliasing and pixel crawl going on in certain scenes similar to the original real-time in-engine reveal of Uncharted 4: A Theif's End where Drake is waking up on a beach.

What did the developers say? Their own words.

 

[see colon]

Hellblade 2 was in-engine footage. They never said it was running real-time on an actual hardware, much less on a XSX.

As far as we know, it was CGI.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283057884616482816

Epic says it was realtime. On Series X? I'm not sure, but running on real hardware,and realtime, and running on real hardware in realtime are 3 different things. Remember that Sony once showed a "running on PS3" trailer for Last Guardian that ran at a near flawless 30fps and looked better than anything else on the system, and only after the PS3 version was cancelled was it revealed that the game was only running at 15 fps and they played it back at double speed for the presentation.

Hellblade 2's trailer has a bunch of small scenes with very high details. It isn't beyond the realm of plausibility to me that those tightly packed scenes, with fixed camera angles, couldn't be rendered on Series X, or PS5 either. I think they will be able to get that quality in the characters in the real time cinematics at least, maybe not in gameplay. But the trailer wasn't gameplay, just a next gen showcase. There's very little gameplay in the Horizon 2 trailer either. Lots of in engine cinematics setting up the story, and a big turtle standing up, and some scenes of robots walking.

 

[chris1515]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283057884616482816

Epic says it was realtime. On Series X? I'm not sure, but running on real hardware,and realtime, and running on real hardware in realtime are 3 different things. Remember that Sony once showed a "running on PS3" trailer for Last Guardian that ran at a near flawless 30fps and looked better than anything else on the system, and only after the PS3 version was cancelled was it revealed that the game was only running at 15 fps and they played it back at double speed for the presentation.

Hellblade 2's trailer has a bunch of small scenes with very high details. It isn't beyond the realm of plausibility to me that those tightly packed scenes, with fixed camera angles, couldn't be rendered on Series X, or PS5 either. I think they will be able to get that quality in the characters in the real time cinematics at least, maybe not in gameplay. But the trailer wasn't gameplay, just a next gen showcase. There's very little gameplay in the Horizon 2 trailer either. Lots of in engine cinematics setting up the story, and a big turtle standing up, and some scenes of robots walking.

I prefer gameplay and mostly near release date sometimes between a gameplay trailer two years before the release and the final game a downgrade appear, for example TLOU2 compared to E3 2018. Some gameplay a few months before release is often honest.

I don't trust anything in engine. Same Horizon 2, gameplay or bust...

EDIT: I know Cyberpunk 2077 will look very good on PC for example. I trust FF16 because it doesn't look like great.

 

[PSman1700]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283057884616482816

Epic says it was realtime. On Series X? I'm not sure, but running on real hardware,and realtime, and running on real hardware in realtime are 3 different things. Remember that Sony once showed a "running on PS3" trailer for Last Guardian that ran at a near flawless 30fps and looked better than anything else on the system, and only after the PS3 version was cancelled was it revealed that the game was only running at 15 fps and they played it back at double speed for the presentation.

Hellblade 2's trailer has a bunch of small scenes with very high details. It isn't beyond the realm of plausibility to me that those tightly packed scenes, with fixed camera angles, couldn't be rendered on Series X, or PS5 either. I think they will be able to get that quality in the characters in the real time cinematics at least, maybe not in gameplay. But the trailer wasn't gameplay, just a next gen showcase. There's very little gameplay in the Horizon 2 trailer either. Lots of in engine cinematics setting up the story, and a big turtle standing up, and some scenes of robots walking.

Cant agree more. Horizon didnt show any gameplay either, and like DF noted even spiderman is basically only cinematic gameplay which always is going to look more dramatic then pure gameplay moments.
Also, i have no doubt MS or epic where lying, that HB2 demo wasnt CGI atleast, probably a high end pc (2080Ti or even ampere hw?).
It would not surprise me if they can come close for the XSX and pc versions. I think scaling really has come a long way now, look at spiderman and forbidden west, doom eternal etc.

Im mostly pc and used to this with scaling where it has worked quite well. Even Doom 3 and HL2 could be downported to a P3 733 system from 2001 (og xbox). It just is alot more effort.

I prefer gameplay and mostly near release date sometimes between a gameplay trailer two years before the release and the final you have a downgrade, for example TLOU2 compared to E3 2018. Some gameplay a few months before release is often honest.

I don't trust anything in engine. Same Horizon 2, gameplay or bust...

This i also agree on, promises and cinematic/cgi showcases and all, the final product is what matters. So far where in the dark for most games. Demo souls is the one and only game that has somewhat of a leap, and the only one with gameplay to have proven that.

 

[thicc_gaf]

Are in-engine trailers ever representative of the actual game?

Wasn't this claimed to be realtime, in-engine footage? The final game barely resembles that.

TBF, it's EA ; they and Ubisoft have a "history" of the actual games lowering the targets.

OTOH, 1P content tends to hit the mark in real-time much closer (in some cases even better) than whatever early vertical slice demos show. Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 are both examples of this. I'd say Horizon as well.

Microsoft really seems on the ball with ensuring their 1P from hereon hits high targets when it comes time to real-time performance. I think FS2020 is a very recent example of this (granted if you have a good enough PC to run it on at max settings); that's probably one of the best showcases for what a next-gen game taxing the upcoming consoles can actually look like if everything synergizes on the development, resources and funding side of things.

 

[AlNom]

More BC Tests:

Red Dead Redemption 2, Ark, Just Cause 3, Assetto Corsa Competizione

and more.

 

[techuse]

TBF, it's EA ; they and Ubisoft have a "history" of the actual games lowering the targets.

OTOH, 1P content tends to hit the mark in real-time much closer (in some cases even better) than whatever early vertical slice demos show. Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 are both examples of this. I'd say Horizon as well.

Microsoft really seems on the ball with ensuring their 1P from hereon hits high targets when it comes time to real-time performance. I think FS2020 is a very recent example of this (granted if you have a good enough PC to run it on at max settings); that's probably one of the best showcases for what a next-gen game taxing the upcoming consoles can actually look like if everything synergizes on the development, resources and funding side of things.

Uncharted 4 didn’t come close to matching its initial trailer.