The scalability and evolution of game engines *spawn*

[John Norum]

Please provide the calculation you used to get these numbers.

Number of floating point operations per second / number of pixels

 

[Strange]

https://twistedvoxel.com/yakuza-like-a-dragon-xbox-series-s-x/

Yakuza: Like a Dragon Runs at 900p On Xbox Series S and 1440p On Series X In 60 FPS Mode

Didn't take until launch for 900p titles.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2153200/

Called it a month ago, didn't think it would hit that fast though.

Point was 1440p 30fps will get scaled down to something in the range of 720p 30fps, instead of 1080p.
1440p scaling down to 1080p only decreases the resolution by a factor of 1.77 and by current knowledge isn't doable with 1/3 of the same FLOPS on the same architecture.

My point was to expect 720p~900p on the XBSS, not 1080p across the board.
Hi, next gen graphics with 720p/900p.
What happens when XBSX and PS5 struggle to hit 1080p on an unknown future game?
will we be expecting SD definition?

 

[BRiT]

Interesting there are 2 modes, with a drop from 4K30 to 1440p60 on Series X.

Series X: 4K30
Series S: 1440p30

Series X: 1440p60
Series S: 900p60

First of all, he confirmed that Yakuza: Like a Dragon will run at 4K at 30 FPS and 1440p at 60 FPS on the Xbox Series X.​

There are two modes supported for Yakuza: Like a Dragon. One is the high frame-rate mode that runs at 60 FPS while the other is the resolution mode. In the case of the Xbox Series S, the resolution mode will run at 1440p at 30 FPS while the high frame-rate mode which targets 60 FPS will run at 900p at 60 FPS.​

 

[VitaminB6]

https://twistedvoxel.com/yakuza-like-a-dragon-xbox-series-s-x/

Yakuza: Like a Dragon Runs at 900p On Xbox Series S and 1440p On Series X In 60 FPS Mode

Didn't take until launch for 900p titles.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2153200/

Called it a month ago, didn't think it would hit that fast though.

Later in the stream, he also confirmed the resolution and frame rate of the Xbox Series S. There are two modes supported for Yakuza: Like a Dragon. One is the high frame-rate mode that runs at 60 FPS while the other is the resolution mode. In the case of the Xbox Series S, the resolution mode will run at 1440p at 30 FPS while the high frame-rate mode which targets 60 FPS will run at 900p at 60 FPS.

 

[Jay]

Didn't take until launch for 900p titles.

XSS has two modes in case you missed it, one is 1440p30

Why is options bad?
I like the idea it has the option as I was worried like this gen base machines it may not get them.

 

[function]

900p on XSS is bang in line with what you'd expect from 1440p on XSX.

With the 30 fps that we've come to know and love this gen (*cough*) we get 4K and 1440p, which again is bang in line with what the kind of hardware differences the numbers (flops, BW etc) should tell us to expect.

Before this gen I thought that developers should be given options to chose different balances of frequency for CPU and GPU, depending on what suited their needs best (this was before finding out about Sony's dynamic clocks). Here, in resolution mode, you would use the lower fps to reduce CPU clocks and hence max CPU power draw, and give that headroom to the GPU. Sadly, only Nintendo seem to have implemented anything like this with the Switch.

Sony's dynamic clocks and SmartShift kind of allow something like this automatically. A mode focusing on higher resolution at a lower fixed frame rate will naturally offer additional power to run the GPU at higher frequencies.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Yakuza: Like a Dragon Runs at 900p On Xbox Series S and 1440p On Series X In 60 FPS Mode

Didn't take until launch for 900p titles.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2153200/

Called it a month ago, didn't think it would hit that fast though.

Same here:

Now going with the same SeriesS = SeriesX / 3 logic, then 1/3rd of 4.3 MPixels is 1.44 MPixels, which is exactly 1600*900.

XSS has two modes in case you missed it, one is 1440p30

Why is options bad?
I like the idea it has the option as I was worried like this gen base machines it may not get them.

Options are good. It's just that it was a rather popular opinion on this forum that developers would be hand-tuning graphics effects for the SeriesS version of their games to avoid having the console rendering below 1080p. Because that's how we already do on the PC (which is a flawed argument because console games need thorough QA testing for every change they make in the code).
That is already not happening, and the SeriesS is simply rendering the same as the SeriesX but at exactly 1/3rd of the resolution.


And I also don't think most people get how bad 900p will look when compared to the big consoles rendering ~2.5-3x more pixels, but this is something only time will tell.

 

[Jay]

Options are good. It's just that it was a rather popular opinion on this forum that developers would be hand-tuning graphics effects for the SeriesS version of their games to avoid having the console rendering below 1080p.

sorry not read link, but I believe most people said the resolution would drop in line first and formost, and then if necessary other tweaks made.

And I also don't think most people get how bad 900p will look when compared to the big consoles rendering ~2.5-3x more pixels, but this is something only time will tell.

then play at 1440p?
For a 1080p tv, at 60fps, costing $300 I think you don't understand that for those people they can live with it.
Same way many people live with it who currently game on XO/S.

Lets see how these games actually compare on different consoles.
I.E does current gen get a 60fps mode? How is image quality.....

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I think the average XSS owner won't even notice the difference between 900p and 1080p.

 

[Strange]

Why 4K then? Why 1440p? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[AlNom]

RE: Manifold Garden

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ma...ources-check-threadmarks.305672/post-48396644

So, our game runs on low end to high end devices, from iPhone 6S all the way up to Xbox Series X. In terms of scalability we always knew that we would be able to hit Series S, but one of my favorite moments in development was realizing just how powerful it actually was (this was a bit before the public announcement.) Realizing that if you're playing on a 1080p or 1440p display, the game would look pretty much the same between Series S and Series X made me very, very happy, as I'm (and this is me personally, not representing the team or ANY studio I work with,) very much a fan of making sure people have lots of ways to experience games.


That said, I want to triple underscore that this isn't a news story saying "Xbox Series X|S launch title dev says games on Series S look the same as Series X outside of resolution," because every game is going to be different. I'm excitedly awaiting my Series X pre-order to arrive along with everyone else so I can see what cool stuff other devs have done on this hardware. For Manifold specifically, the devices are both really awesome.



---


Edit so I don't double post (sorry not a super frequent poster so I'm not 100% on etiquette, apologies of this means it's harder to find)




You can play now and your save will carry over! There are actually two completely separate routes through the game, so if you have an Xbox One or One X, play the game normally, and then launch it on November 10th with your Series X, you can go for the 0% route where you don't complete any of the core objectives, explore the architecture in a new way, and still experience everything the Series X version brings to the table.

edit:

PS4/Pro

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ma...ources-check-threadmarks.305672/post-48394523

This I can answer! So fundamentally, and this isn't marketing speak, we made sure that every version of the game was one we were proud of and would be excited if it was player's only experience with the game. On PS4 and PS4 Pro, you get 1080p and 1620p at 60 fps (though being perfectly honest it goes between about 50 and 60 fps.) The game looks great on either, and you'll of course be able to play the PlayStation 4 version of the game on PlayStation 5 through backwards compatibility and have a great time.


That said, if you watch our trailer for the game that we put out at our initial console launch (

) you can see what type of game it is in motion - especially in the exterior areas, it's a beautiful game where the architecture really shines. The Series X version has pretty much maxed out settings - faster loads, rock solid 60 fps, max draw distance(!), and more. I especially want to highlight the draw distance. If you want to get the game on PlayStation 4, play it there, and have that be your experience, we'd love that. It's a wonderful version of the game that was in development for a long time and received a ton of love!!


The Xbox Series X version of the game will hopefully reach a new audience, and that new audience will see the same great game, just shining on more powerful hardware with all the bells and whistles.


tl;dr, we're very proud of all versions of MG.

———
OneX

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ma...ources-check-threadmarks.305672/post-48395309

1800p/60 with settings between PS4 Pro and Xbox Series X, I believe!

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Snippets of the interview with David Cage, the CEO of Quantic Dream (Nomad Soul, Beyond: Two Souls, Detroid: Become Human):

Many developers prefer consoles to PC because on consoles you only have to deal with one hardware, whereas on PC there are so many configurations, graphic cards, drivers, controllers etc. that makes the development much more complex.

When a manufacturer offers two consoles with different specs, there is a strong chance that most developers will focus on the lower-end version to avoid doing two different versions. I must confess that I am really not a big fan of this situation. I think it is confusing for developers, but also for players, and although I can understand the commercial reasons behind this choice (a difference of €200 on the street price) I think the situation is questionable.

then play at 1440p?

That's only an option for a game that plays at 1440p60 on the SeriesX. It will not be an option when there's a game that plays at 1440p30 on the higher-end console.
In fact, some developers could even opt to go lower than 1440p next-gen:

I believe that the next battle will be about lighting more than polycount or even resolution. In the past, the polycount was considered as the most important thing to increase visual fidelity, then resolution was the next big thing, but today, most developers know that lighting is what matters the most. Many will prefer to have ray tracing in Full HD rather than limited lighting in 4K. Ray tracing, realistic lighting and reflections, advanced shaders, optical effects and advanced image treatment are the features our R&D is currently implementing in our Next Gen engine.

For a 1080p tv, at 60fps, costing $300 I think you don't understand that for those people they can live with it.

I don't know if the amount of people who have a disposable income of $300 but not $500 is that large, to be honest. Especially at launch.

Same way many people live with it who currently game on XO/S.

Many of whom will keep playing games on XO/S for some years until they're forced to change platform because no more games are coming out for their current one. There are also many who only buy consoles in their later years, but mostly because the libraries are rich at that point. Which puts into question the need to have a lower-tier console at launch IMO.

(I guess I'd be in that bandwagon too, if I only played FIFA or NFL and the roster changes were the most important parts of the game for me.)

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Why 4K then? Why 1440p? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For people like you and me.

 

[zed]

I believe that the next battle will be about lighting more than polycount or even resolution. In the past, the polycount was considered as the most important thing to increase visual fidelity, then resolution was the next big thing, but today, most developers know that lighting is what matters the most. Many will prefer to have ray tracing in Full HD rather than limited lighting in 4K. Ray tracing, realistic lighting and reflections, advanced shaders, optical effects and advanced image treatment are the features our R&D is currently implementing in our Next Gen engine.

Today? heres me on these forums from 13 years ago here

i realise u were taking the piss but, yes u are correct, i have in fact sort of written up a chart (lighting/shading is the single most important thing contributing ~50% of the visual quality)

Lighting/shading is the most important thing by a long way, 50% was prolly an underestimation its prolly closer to 70%

The thing is with the raytracing as it seems to be used in the new games is they are using it in the wrong place, they seem to be using it chiefly for reflections (puddles etc) which is nice and all but unless you are making spiderman (with lots of reflective buildings shown in daylight) eg some sort of mirror/water world , most other games would be much much better served using it for global lighting

The thing is when a game comes out with this, ppl will go Oh OK, WTF have they been giving us these shiny reflections for then?

 

[Lalaland]

The thing is with the raytracing as it seems to be used in the new games is they are using it in the wrong place, they seem to be using it chiefly for reflections (puddles etc) which is nice and all but unless you are making spiderman (with lots of reflective buildings shown in daylight) eg some sort of mirror/water world , most other games would be much much better served using it for global lighting

The thing is when a game comes out with this, ppl will go Oh OK, WTF have they been giving us these shiny reflections for then?

I wonder if RT is akin to the early days of SSAO where bad implementations meant drawing grey stairs on characters faces the moment they turned away from a light source. In other words do the limitations of existing RT techniques simply make it a poor match for GI on these consoles dues to lower res or other issues than existing SS techniques?

Hopefully it's simply a case of game engines for the next 1-2 years will largely have been built on existing SS techniques with a sprinkling of RT on top rather than risking baking in RT early when the studios would not have had clear guidance from Sony/MS on what level of RT perf to expect for next gen. In that scenario I could see companies choosing not to go all out designing for the best case scenario lest they find themselves in an Ubisoft Watch Dogs farce again.

 

[eastmen]

It seems odd to me that this is such a hang up. The xbox series x doesn't do 4k in every game. Should it have been called a 1080p box also ? What about the ps5 ? It doesn't do 4k in all games either. Should that be a 1080p box ?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

It seems odd to me that this is such a hang up. The xbox series x doesn't do 4k in every game. Should it have been called a 1080p box also ? What about the ps5 ? It doesn't do 4k in all games either. Should that be a 1080p box ?

In every presentation by MS about the Series S where they compared it to the X, they constantly mentioned 1440p, leading outlets like DF to remark that perhaps that was not entirely accurate. It's not a 'hang up', it's responding to what's marketed vs. what is commonly seen in practice, which is a very tepid and completely legit critique when dealing with marketing claims.

 

[eastmen]

In every presentation by MS about the Series S where they compared it to the X, they constantly mentioned 1440p, leading outlets like DF to remark that perhaps that was not entirely accurate. It's not a 'hang up', it's responding to what's marketed vs. what is commonly seen in practice, which is a very tepid and completely legit critique when dealing with marketing claims.

And like I said , MS always attached 4k to the series X and it doesn't always run at 4k. So its an odd thing to get hung up on when no one is really hung up on its bigger brother's advertising

 

[Silent_Buddha]

In every presentation by MS about the Series S where they compared it to the X, they constantly mentioned 1440p, leading outlets like DF to remark that perhaps that was not entirely accurate. It's not a 'hang up', it's responding to what's marketed vs. what is commonly seen in practice, which is a very tepid and completely legit critique when dealing with marketing claims.

But both Sony and MS constantly mention 4k in their advertising for PS5/XBS-X, so is it also not accurate for those machines if they don't always hit 4k?

Regards,
SB

 

[Flappy Pannus]

And like I said , MS always attached 4k to the series X and it doesn't always run at 4k. So its an odd thing to get hung up on when no one is really hung up on its bigger brother's advertising

Ah yes, if there's one thing we never hear about with regards to next gen consoles is when a game doesn't run at full 4k.