General external expansion discussion? *spawn*

[goonergaz]

Well gaming sessions can last hours on end, the throttling isn't a result of loading for 110 seconds, it's a result of heat. Once the controller has gone beyond the heat boundary it throttles. Going hard for 7GB/s for 2 minutes generates heat that eventually leads to the throttle. We don't even know how to insert a nvme drive into the PS5, I have no clue what it looks like in there. You have these gaming sessions for hours on end, the ambient temperature of that case is bound to be higher than what you find in a PC.

No we don't, and you're thinking Sony haven't thought about this - or that it was a 2nd thought. As I said earlier, they decided 825gb very early and as such will have planned for the fact users will need rather than want to upgrade. I wouldn't be at all surprised of the PS5 SSD is a little caddy that helps dissipate the heat.

But keep lets on with the concern trolling...like when Sony first announced the SSD speed and everyone doubted it, and then people dissed the variable clock speeds and now we're getting reports it's actually working as advertised.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Well gaming sessions can last hours on end, the throttling isn't a result of loading for 110 seconds, it's a result of heat. Once the controller has gone beyond the heat boundary it throttles. Going hard for 7GB/s for 2 minutes generates heat that eventually leads to the throttle. We don't even know how to insert a nvme drive into the PS5, I have no clue what it looks like in there. You have these gaming sessions for hours on end, the ambient temperature of that case is bound to be higher than what you find in a PC.

So you're now saying the NVMe in the PS5 can throttle because... people play longer sessions on consoles than on PCs?
And the PS5 will get hotter inside the case despite us not knowing anything about the cooling yet?

 

[iroboto]

So you're now saying the NVMe in the PS5 can throttle because... people play longer sessions on consoles than on PCs?
And the PS5 will get hotter inside the case despite us not knowing anything about the cooling yet?

No I didn't say that. Relax, calm down. I'm indicating a true lack of information. I've made the assumption it won't throttle because that's how consoles are generally built. And because I've made that assumption, I've been carrying it to the external nvme expansions.

I'm just saying the details fairly sparse and almost all of us are being left to make best guesses on behalf of Sony here.

 

[iroboto]

No we don't, and you're thinking Sony haven't thought about this - or that it was a 2nd thought. As I said earlier, they decided 825gb very early and as such will have planned for the fact users will need rather than want to upgrade. I wouldn't be at all surprised of the PS5 SSD is a little caddy that helps dissipate the heat.

But keep lets on with the concern trolling...like when Sony first announced the SSD speed and everyone doubted it, and then people dissed the variable clock speeds and now we're getting reports it's actually working as advertised.

Nope, I don't think the variable clock rates were ever a concern troll.
When compared to their nearest competitor they are:

• Up to 18% more power at the PSU (360W vs 300W)
• Over 60% larger box than their nearest competitor (10L vs 6L)
• Weights slightly more (0.1 KG more)
• A device that needs a stand for horizontal or vertical positioning (vs no stand required)
• Is the largest console in history when concerning the 3 remaining players and all past generations

And despite of it is still the same price (499 v 499) AND at a deficit of at 18% less compute (12 vs 10.23) and at least 20% less bandwidth (560 vs 448)

So as stressed by concern trolling, Sony would pay the piper if they decided to try to keep performance around 2230Mhz, and I think the above states that very well.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Nope, I don't think the variable clock rates were ever a concern troll.
When compared to their nearest competitor they are:
Up to 18% more power
Over 60% larger box than their nearest competitor
Weights slightly more
Is the largest console in history when concerning the 3 remaining players and all past generations
And despite of it is still the same price AND at a deficit of 18% less compute and at least 20% less bandwidth.

It's almost like.. #gasp# compute throughput and system memory bandwidth aren't the only driving forces of a console's BoM and power consumption, and console launch price (or how much each company is willing to subsidize early adopters) is also dependent on how much profit each company is planning to make from software on the short, medium and long term.


And frankly at this point, now that PowerPlay tables on the Navi 22 40CU RDNA2 chip have come up, showing clock values going as high as 2500MHz, insisting on whether or not the PS5's GPU can hold 2.23GHz does seem a bit like concern trolling.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And frankly at this point, now that PowerPlay tables on the Navi 22 40CU RDNA2 chip have come up, showing clock values going as high as 2500MHz, insisting on whether or not the PS5's GPU can hold 2.23GHz does seem a bit like concern trolling.

Do you also remember the reason that Cerny stated for why they capped it at 2.23 GHz? It's an important detail.

It's almost like... #gasp# they are 2 different chips. If the PS5 could hold the GPU at that speed all the time (it likely can if...) while also holding the CPU at 3.5 GHz all the time (it likely can if...) at the power targets that Sony have then they would have done it. But it can't at the power target that Sony chose in all cases, so we have variable clocks if the power budget is reached while a game is running.

What the exact breakdown is while running a game, none of us know. People speculating it's at 2.23 almost all the time are just as correct as people speculating it's near 2.0 GHz much, but not most, of the time. Cerny only stated it was at or close to 2.23 GHz most of the time.

The last I read (Digital Foundry article) most developers were choosing to throttle the CPU in order to ensure that the GPU doesn't throttle. Will that be the case throughout this generation? Or will developers find ways in which to use the CPU such that they will willingly sacrifice GPU speed in order to have sustained max CPU speed?

What happens if XBSX becomes the lead platform for a multiplatform developer and they push both the CPU and GPU? Do they decide that sustained GPU performance is most important or do they decide that sustained CPU is most important?

Regards,
SB

 

[iroboto]

It's almost like.. #gasp# compute throughput and system memory bandwidth aren't the only driving forces of a console's BoM and power consumption, and console launch price (or how much each company is willing to subsidize early adopters) is also dependent on how much profit each company is planning to make from software on the short, medium and long term.


And frankly at this point, now that PowerPlay tables on the Navi 22 40CU RDNA2 chip have come up, showing clock values going as high as 2500MHz, insisting on whether or not the PS5's GPU can hold 2.23GHz does seem a bit like concern trolling.

There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in play about the physical setup and price point of PS5 that cannot be ignored. Sony is competent, they wouldn't make decisions that would cost them more money for fun. The biggest box, the larger PSU, the need for a stand, are all signs that point towards costs incurred for being able to operate at those clocks.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

People speculating it's at 2.23 almost all the time are just as correct as people speculating it's near 2.0 GHz much, but not most, of the time. Cerny only stated it was at or close to 2.23 GHz most of the time.

Wow, you managed to contradict yourself using two sentences in a row.

There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in play about the physical setup and price point of PS5 that cannot be ignored. Sony is competent, they wouldn't make decisions that would cost them more money for fun. The biggest box, the larger PSU, the need for a stand, are all signs that point towards costs needed for sustaining those clocks.

And that evidence is pointing to what, exactly?
I'm especially interested in knowing how you think the stand is evidence for erm.. hardships in sustaining clocks.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Wow, you managed to contradict yourself using two sentences in a row.

Eh?

Cerny's statement. At or near 2.23 GHz most of the time.

• At or near 2.23 GHz > 50% of the time.

Speculation. At or near 2.23 GHz almost always...qualifies for the above statement by Cerny.

Speculation. At or near 2.0 GHz much, but not most of the time...qualifies for the above statement by Cerny.

Neither contradict what Cerny stated. If you want to blame anyone for holding various viewpoints, then blame Cerny for being deliberately vague on details.

But I don't necessarily blame Cerny for this. If it's up to a developer to determine whether they wish to throttle CPU for sustained GPU performance or whether they wish to throttle GPU in order to have sustained CPU performance, or if they want a variable combination of the two, it's up to them. Thus Cerny can't state with any certainty what the clocks will be all time or even at any given time in any given game.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The biggest box, the larger PSU, the need for a stand, are all signs that point towards costs incurred for being able to operate at those clocks.

Series X has a stand for vertical orientation that literally cannot be removed in horizontal orientation.

Personally, I consider this a day one challenge, that thing is coming off.

 

[iroboto]

And that evidence is pointing to what, exactly?
I'm especially interested in knowing how you think the stand is evidence for erm.. hardships in sustaining clocks.

The variable clock 'concern trolling' was in direct refute of PS5 being able to hold those clocks _while_ sustaining a form of cost superiority over their competitor.
Clocks are sustainable provided you want to pay the piper to have the yields, cooling and power to support it.

A smaller chip.
A higher PSU
The largest volume in a box
With less component ability on the CPU, on the GPU , less Memory bandwidth
and a stand that is designed in combination with a chassis such that it makes it very difficult to obstruct airflow by placing things on top of or around the device. Ie. it is not stacking friendly in either orientation.
Vertically the stand gets in the way of having something else sit close to it as it extends nearly an inch to the left and right of it.
Horizontally you can't place anything ontop because it's uneven
the fins at the top don't let you stack anything there either.

All of these are signs of compromises made to support a higher clocked chip. And in the end it's the same price as their competitor despite being weaker across the board on every single category, even the most expensive part of the SSD, memory chips, it has less. (1TB vs 825G)

Yet in the end it's still costs the same. If PS5 comes out holding those clocks, if you want to consider that a win go for it. It certainly didn't come out as a price win which was the expectation by many.

 

[iroboto]

Series X has a stand for vertical orientation that literally cannot be removed in horizontal orientation.

Personally, I consider this a day one challenge, that thing is coming off.

Its designed specifically to perform in this nature. We know how tight the internals are, so they must guarantee airflow for such scenario. I feel like doing so will lock it to horizontal use only. It's not going to survive vertically.

 

[BRiT]

Personally, I consider this a day one challenge, that thing is coming off.

That's the spirit!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Its designed specifically to perform in this nature. We know how tight the internals are, so they must guarantee airflow for such scenario. I feel like doing so will lock it to horizontal use only. It's not going to survive vertically.

I don't quite follow what you're saying here. The big round disc (the stand) on the bottom of Series X (when vertical) seems to impede airflow. I'm curious why the stand is needed given Series X (when vertical) is short and squat and doesn't seem to require a stand for stability (unlike PS5) and I feel that four removable rubber feet would serve better here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[function]

And frankly at this point, now that PowerPlay tables on the Navi 22 40CU RDNA2 chip have come up, showing clock values going as high as 2500MHz, insisting on whether or not the PS5's GPU can hold 2.23GHz does seem a bit like concern trolling.

Powerplay tables go beyond the clocks that actual products are advertised to be able to reach. This way, some 5700XT cards have been seen to automatically clock to above the advertised boost clock for the stock card.

The 5700XT by default has a max speed of 2150 Mhz in its Powerplay table, according to TPU. Its advertised "boost clock" was more than 10% lower than this figure. Its advertised "game clock" was 1755 mhz, nearly 20 % lower.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14618/the-amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-rx-5700-review/15

It would be a mistake to think the top end speed in Powerplay table translates into sustained gaming clocks. In RDNA 1 it doesn't even translate into peak observed boost clocks. Actual gaming clocks on Navi 22 will be well below 2500 mHz and quite possibly go under the PS5's 2.23 gHz, and I'd bet on that.

And the PS5 can't boost opportunistically if one PS5 chip has a better power profile than another. All of them are bound by the lowest performing yielding chip.

TL : DR - in RDNA 1, max Powerplay clocks were well beyond game clocks, and even beyond maximum advertised or observed boost clocks. Every PS5 has to handle worst case silicon.

Navi 22 Powerplay table clocks don't necessarily contradict anything that @iroboto has noted about the PS5 (size, power), or anything @Silent_Buddha has pointed out about Cerny's comments.

 

[iroboto]

I don't quite follow what you're saying here. The big round disc (the stand) on the bottom of Series X (when vertical) seems to impede airflow. I'm curious why the stand is needed given Series X (when vertical) is short and squat and doesn't seem to require a stand for stability (unlike PS5) and I feel that four removable rubber feet would serve better here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think they needed to ensure they could get airflow to the 2 air channels. So the backside of the console fills the main air channel that cools the APU. The other air channel I believe is for general cooling of the mobo and ssd, and that's supported by the inlets underneath the console. if you remove the foot, and stand it vertically, you're going to cut it off I think.

 

[Silenti]

Series X has a stand for vertical orientation that literally cannot be removed in horizontal orientation.

Personally, I consider this a day one challenge, that thing is coming off.

Perhaps you could give us your own version of a "teardown" video?
Start with a coping saw, move to a Dremel, then an orbital sander, finish it off with either a sledgehammer (if it just won't budge), or a plasma torch (propane is ok, just not as impressive).

 

[BRiT]

Thermite.

 

[iroboto]

Perhaps you could give us your own version of a "teardown" video?
Start with a coping saw, move to a Dremel, then an orbital sander, finish it off with either a sledgehammer (if it just won't budge), or a plasma torch (propane is ok, just not as impressive).

I will like, subscribe and comment down below.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I think they needed to ensure they could get airflow to the 2 air channels. So the backside of the console fills the main air channel that cools the APU. The other air channel I believe is for general cooling of the mobo and ssd, and that's supported by the inlets underneath the console. if you remove the foot, and stand it vertically, you're going to cut it off I think.

Rubber feet will increase airflow and reduces vibration. And because of the grid-like bottom, they'll be easy to shape and fit.