General Next Generation Rumors and Discussions [Post GDC 2020]

[AbsoluteBeginner]

I think MS made better compromises this gen, but we'll see in a year or two if this is the case. Its just the question of priorities, and Sony set their's on SSD/audio, while MS set theirs on GPU/CPU combo. Not that they are slacking on the parts they are "weaker" then competition, but to me GPU/CPU is nr.1 priority when it comes to console gaming (if rest is more then adequate).

As for developers, I can see how Sony's solution, which is frankly ridiculous, will result in easier development, although I am sure MS solution will provide them with enough performance and tools not to matter in the end. From their POV, its probably easier to slash resolution and few settings then change the way artists put assets on screen.

 

[chris1515]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/devs-react-to-ps5-specs-twitter-edition.175980/post-30149621

Or this...

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It's a head-scratcher how many folks don't get what a massive shift to SSD the new generation will bring, which I think in part is because I/O is just not a sexy thing to talk about but because most folks just don't realise how having slow HDDs has limited game design and game designer's options this past generation.

And it's really easy for Sony to sell. If it is indeed the case, "NO LOAD TIMES!!!" is an easier concept to sell to gamers than more shinier graphics. So shiny. shiny.

It didn't limit game design, it limited what you could do with X level of graphics. The more you move away from graphics as the limiting factor the greater the innovation in gameplay which has been going on for years now on lower spec hardware than current generation consoles.

We'll see greater variety of graphics, more convenience (less inconveniences) and potentially some AAA developers will pick up gameplay elements that have existed for years but they weren't able to put in due to the need to have X level of graphics in their titles.

I'll be extremely surprised if we get any new types of gameplay that couldn't have been done on current gen consoles. But I certainly expect to see things on next gen consoles that you couldn't do on current gen consoles like faster loading (convenience), less pop-in (graphics), larger levels (same gameplay but expanded), more gameplay elements (things that already exist but with better graphics), etc. Just like open world games have basically existed since the early 90's...except with smaller worlds and more limited gameplay now than they had back then, but with greater focus on linear story telling (sometimes with side stories) and greater graphical detail.

And I've been super excited about the new focus on storage ever since we got the first hints that the console makers might be focusing on that. Same goes for audio which I think has huge potential if both console makers focus on it at least as much as they have the storage subsystems.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It didn't limit game design, it limited what you could do with X level of graphics.

It's not about graphics. If I want to design a game where I can move around a massive, but diverse and dense environment at high-speed, I can't do it on current gen consoles because you can't pull all the assets from storage for these diverse dense environments. You could not, for example, take Spider-Man and make into a Superman game. Not unless you slow Superman way down, or you make so many compromises to the environment that it just doesn't feel like a city anymore - just Superman just flying around a bunch of tall bland geometry.

Graphics is the least imaginative thing devs will be leveraging SSDs for in new machines for. Forget graphics. It's a complete distraction.

Think of Cyberpunk 2077 where you can fly around the city at high speed and zoom down to ground near instantly in any place and have all that detail immediately available.

 

[Nesh]

It's not about graphics. If I want to design a game where I can move around a massive, but diverse and dense environment at high-speed, I can't do it on current gen consoles because you can't pull all the assets from storage for these diverse dense environments. You could not, for example, take Spider-Man and make into a Superman game. Not unless you slow Superman way down, or you make so many compromises to the environment that it just doesn't feel like a city anymore - just Superman just flying around a bunch of tall bland geometry.

Graphics is the least imaginative thing devs will be leveraging SSDs for in new machines for. Forget graphics. It's a complete distraction.

Think a version of Cyberpunk 2077 would you can fly round the city at high speed and zoom down near instantly in any place and have all that detail immediately available.

Fast flying vehicles exclusive to PS5 confirmed [emoji14]

 

[TeamGhobad]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/devs-react-to-ps5-specs-twitter-edition.175980/post-30149621

Or this...

and no mention of bandwidth....interesting post from a "dev".

 

[PSman1700]

Forget graphics. It's a complete distraction.

DSoup - 2020

 

[Deleted member 7537]

and no mention of bandwidth....interesting post from a "dev".

Bandwidth of what?

 

[Metal_Spirit]

It's a head-scratcher how many folks don't get what a massive shift to SSD the new generation will bring, which I think in part is because I/O is just not a sexy thing to talk about but because most folks just don't realise how having slow HDDs has limited game design and game designer's options this past generation.

And it's really easy for Sony to sell. If it is indeed the case, "NO LOAD TIMES!!!" is an easier concept to sell to gamers than more shinier graphics. So shiny. shiny.

Even better... what about ”PERSISTENT DYNAMIC OPEN WORLDS”.
Remember when you in GTA steal a car, go up a couple of streets, drop the car, get back to there you started on foot, and when you get back to the car he is not there?
Or when you shoot a wall full of bullets, get away, and the wall is now intact again?
What if the ssd could register all world changes you create with random interaction so that things stay in there. Mix this with AI and you could get a dynamic world, a living world like never before. Why can’t you destroy a house with rockets on GTA unless its scripted? One of the reasons is because world changes are kept in memory and memory cannot keep them forever since it is required.
in a dynamic world, destroy a house, even one that would be used in a later mission, and the AI would choose another for the mission. If there was enough time between the time you destroyed the house, and the actual mission, you could even see the house being repaired in the meantime, and unless you destroy it again, it would be ready on the required mission.
With next gen and a fast ssd that could become a reality. All it takes is a way to register and load world changes. The world could change, NPCs could also change the world, like instead of bullet decals just disappearing, or always staying, you could go to location on the next day, and see people repairing the damage you made. This would need extra graphical assets, and AI, but above all, a way that is not available today, to register the changes.
Memory cannot do this since its volatile and above all not enough, but an ssd could allow it. In the limit games could be so dinamic that two runs would never be the same depending on player interaction.
Both consoles could start to do something like this, but PS5, with its fast SSD would be on a league of it’s own.

 

[dobwal]

and no mention of bandwidth....interesting post from a "dev".

What’s a 20% difference in flops or a 100% difference in SDD bandwidth when you are in the midst of a gen transition where you are experiencing a 700%-1000% increase in flops and 2400%-5000% more bandwidth from the drive to RAM?

It’s all relative. “Big” and “small”-like descriptions don’t matter as they tend to be subjective. The proof is in the pudding. We will see what matters once we get the next gen games.

 

[disco_]

and no mention of bandwidth....interesting post from a "dev".

Fight the good fight, brother!

 

[TeamGhobad]

What’s a 20% difference in flops or a 100% difference in SDD bandwidth when you are in the midst of a gen transition where you are experiencing a 700%-1000% increase in flops and 2400%-5000% more bandwidth from the drive to RAM?

It’s all relative. “Big” and “small”-like descriptions don’t matter as they tend to be subjective. The proof is in the pudding. We will see what matters once we get the next gen games.

from SSD through IO to RAM its a link. and what sony is talking about is only the SSD and IO. from what we gathered is that sony can fill its ram only about 1.7 seconds faster than xbox.

 

[BRiT]

from SSD through IO to RAM its a link. and what sony is talking about is only the SSD and IO. from what we gathered is that sony can fill its ram only about 1.7 seconds faster than xbox.

Where does this ratio come from? Taking into account 560 GB/s vs 448 GB/s, or CPU speeds? I'm having a hard time following the math equation.

 

[iroboto]

The bandwidth of ram won't matter in this case since both are much >>> SSD speeds. They're waiting idle twiddling their thumbs to receive data.

That being said, 1.7 seconds faster is an eternity.

You need to process 120 frames in that time period when looking at a 60 fps title.

The speeds are an important metric here, but people need to start looking at how much data needs to be transferred if we're going to continue down this path. Unless you're talking about just loading levels. Game design isn't going to have a dramatic change if you're just talking about level loading. Destructible terrain and world jumps maybe, but that's only for narrative titles. There are a lot of other titles out there, that particular use case, won't work for.

If someone is designing completely deform-able maps in a real time game, yea I guess you got something there.

I guess in some ways portal is like that.

 

[AlphaWolf]

The ssd is fast but there is still going to be limits on the assets. Content creation didn't suddenly become free. (And at max transfer rate the ps5 drive would run out of new stuff in under a minute even if the game used the whole drive)

 

[goonergaz]

The ssd is fast but there is still going to be limits on the assets. Content creation didn't suddenly become free. (And at max transfer rate the ps5 drive would run out of new stuff in under a minute even if the game used the whole drive)

That really put the speed of the SSD into context!!

 

[Scott_Arm]

Where does this ratio come from? Taking into account 560 GB/s vs 448 GB/s, or CPU speeds? I'm having a hard time following the math equation.

I'd be curious to see this as well. I'm suspicious that the math is not great.

 

[MrFox]

On xbsx the lower speed partition have the same "cost" as the high speed partition on the bus. So to get the close to the maximum b/w they have to use the 10TB partition the vast majority of the time. Which shouldn't be difficult, just some more thinking about how to allocate buffers. But it won't be 560 unless they don't use any memory above 10GB.

Example:
90% requests at 560
10% requests at 336
Effective usable b/w here would be 537

Obviously if it's 99% to 1% the impact is pretty much nothing (557). And if a lazy dev does it randomly it will drop lower (500).

 

[PSman1700]

The ssd is fast but there is still going to be limits on the assets. Content creation didn't suddenly become free. (And at max transfer rate the ps5 drive would run out of new stuff in under a minute even if the game used the whole drive)

Everything needs to be rendered somewhere also, all that data from SSD's in those consoles need to appear on screen somehow. GPU and CPU can still not be left out.

 

[Nesh]

The ssd is fast but there is still going to be limits on the assets. Content creation didn't suddenly become free. (And at max transfer rate the ps5 drive would run out of new stuff in under a minute even if the game used the whole drive)

You dont need every single asset to be unique on screen at every moment