Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[chris1515]

Despite storage being the weakest link, I'm not concerned with next-gen storage speeds seeing what's possible with a streaming engine designed around a mere 20 M/s in Spider-Man on PS4. Next-gen has several order of magnitude improvements for data accessibility. They also have real CPU cores, so nothing should be anemic.

Most likely the only thing I'll be able to complain about is the OS/Dashboard UI if they use the current-gen designs -- every current-gen console has horrible UIs. Not a single one of them has it figured out -- Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Google, Valve.

+1 in the Spiderman GDC they explain how they load people on the ground only when you get near ground because of the streaming, it means the GPU can display something but it is not done because the streaming system can't keep up. It will never be the case.

For UI at least it will be fast. It is nearly impossible to come back to HDD after working with a PC with an SSD.

 

[DavidGraham]

New SSDs are fast relative to HDDs, but incredibly slow relative to RAM. RAM is very slow relative to cpu and gpu caches. SSDs are still by far the weakest link.

The problem is always going to be latency, even If RAM is as fast as caches, searching through it for data is always going to be time consuming, the speed of access is inversely proportional to the memory capacity, especially if we are dealing with several TBs of data.

 

[Rangers]

It's really cool how new console gens push the minimum bar up. It's kind of funny to think pc gamers as peasants until pc can catch up. I just can't wait what for example horizon zero dawn sequel will look when optimimized for ps5 or what next grand theft auto would look like if next gen console technology like fast ssd, ray tracing and 8 fast cpu cores is minimum bar. PC version anyway will take years to come after console version so gta next might be crazy enough to raise minimum bar.

I agree, but the problem is GTA is probably on a 20 year (10 year even seems to conservative) dev cycle by now.

While they have unlimited dollars, whatever they are doing has likely already been in development 7 plus years, and will be firmly rooted in One/PS4 gen, when it comes out in 5-10 years.

Still, I think RDR2 is this gen's graphic champ, so GTA 6 will probably be similarly positioned, near photorealistic. It's a function of dollars spent that 100 million sold affords. I just doubt it will be ACTUALLY designed around PS5/Series X (it might come out for PS6, as well)

 

[chris1515]

I agree, but the problem is GTA is probably on a 20 year (10 year even seems to conservative) dev cycle by now.

While they have unlimited dollars, whatever they are doing has likely already been in development 7 plus years, and will be firmly rooted in One/PS4 gen, when it comes out in 5-10 years.

Still, I think RDR2 is this gen's graphic champ, so GTA 6 will probably be similarly positioned, near photorealistic. It's a function of dollars spent that 100 million sold affords. I just doubt it will be ACTUALLY designed around PS5/Series X (it might come out for PS6, as well)

I doubt you will see better than GTA 6 visually and in attention to detail, they have too much time and people working on a project to beat. Production value to the max. The rendering technical director of Rockstar told they receive devkits two to three years before console release. I suppose they are one of the first third-party studios to receive devkits.

https://www.canardpc.com/394/itineraire-dun-enfant-3d

It is behind a paywall and in french you can use google translate but he said they receive devkit long time before release two or sometimes three years before release. If GTA 6 release in 2023, they will probably have six years working with next-generation devkits and before they can use PC to work.

Comment se passe l'arrivée d'une nouvelle console chez vous ?

Je n'ai pas le droit d'être trop précis, mais nous recevons des dev kits très en avance. On a commencé à jouer avec certaines consoles deux ou trois ans avant qu'elles ne soient annoncées au public. Mais une nouvelle machine, ça crée toujours beaucoup de doutes. On est excité parce que le constructeur nous promet des belles choses, mais on sait qu'il va falloir tout réapprendre, et qu'au final, entre ce que nous présente le fabricant et la version finale, il y a toujours des trucs qui seront pétés. Par exemple, pour la Xbox 360, Microsoft nous a dit que la console serait très performante, et effectivement elle l'était, mais ils ne nous ont pas prévenus qu'on ne disposerait que d'un tout petit bout de mémoire dédié au rendu graphique. Ça a été infernal à programmer. Pareil avec l'architecture Cell de Sony, sur le papier c'était génial, on pouvait faire du calcul massif en parallèle, mais on s'est rendu compte plus tard qu'il était difficile de faire communiquer les différents cœurs entre eux.

EDIT: The interview is very interesting he said PS3 GPU was shit for example. He talks about everything he did not like in previous generation before current gen. His favorite console from a programmer point of view is the PS2 even if it was painful to learn it with manual only in Japanese.

 

[PSman1700]

For UI at least it will be fast. It is nearly impossible to come back to HDD after working with a PC with an SSD.

Might be cpu problem also, on base ps4 things can get slow even with an ssd. Base ps4 has the sata 2 interface but that shouldnt be a problem.

His favorite console from a programmer point of view is the PS2 even if it was painful to learn it with manual only in Japanese.

Did he say why? Gta3, vc and sa all ran with frame rate problems on it. SA had effects that only are on ps2 though (radiosity for example).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It probably is better with faster memory yes, but arent both consoles supposed to get gddr6 ram? In that sense, a PS5 Pro might just have 4 or 8GB very fast ram.

If the PS5 can have 32gb hbm3, instead of 16gb hbm3, the first option would be more desirable?

Not if it costs more and gains nothing. You said you can never have too much RAM. You can, whatever that amount is. The sweat spot is the best balance between capacity, speed, latency and price, 32 GBs is likely to be imbalanced in favour of capacity or against cost.

 

[chris1515]

Might be cpu problem also, on base ps4 things can get slow even with an ssd. Base ps4 has the sata 2 interface but that shouldnt be a problem.



Did he say why? Gta3, vc and sa all ran with frame rate problems on it. SA had effects that only are on ps2 though (radiosity for example).

Because he was coming from been a PC dev and having to work on multiple configuration. He preferred the way to have one hardware and been able to work at very low level on it. He said too something was great on PS3 is to have very low level library for CELL and be able to understand exactly how the machine work. He said other platform holder I suppose Nintendo and Microsoft did not give so low level API.

He comes from the demoscene almost all programmer with the same background prefer to know how the hardware works and work on fixed hardware with lower level API.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Despite storage being the weakest link, I'm not concerned with next-gen storage speeds seeing what's possible with a streaming engine designed around a mere 20 M/s in Spider-Man on PS4. Next-gen has several order of magnitude improvements for data accessibility. They also have real CPU cores, so nothing should be anemic.

I don't disagree, but it's worth remembering that in that 20mb/sec data rate Spider-Man was only required to load assets in the new cell that weren't already in RAM. A lot of the models - cars, pedestrians etc - were common to the whole city, as was much of the texture work. That's why it's only 15 seconds for a point-point fast travel load, but loading the actual game afresh takes well over a minute. I'm sure Insomniac's designers built the city carefully to ensure this was always the case.

If more jarring transitions are required, that dependance on 20mb/sec may not hold up as well.

 

[chris1515]

I don't disagree, but it's worth remembering that in that 20mb/sec data rate Spider-Man was only required to load assets in the new cell that weren't already in RAM. A lot of the models - cars, pedestrians etc - were common to the whole city, as was much of the texture work. That's why it's only 15 seconds for a point-point fast travel load, but loading the actual game afresh takes well over a minute. I'm sure Insomniac's designers built the city carefully to ensure this was always the case.

If more jarring transitions are required, that dependance on 20mb/sec may not hold up as well.

For example it was impossible for them to do without cinematic interior/exterior sequence. The first sequence entering into Fisk Tower took them month to make because of streaming limitation and the need to hide the limitation with a cinematic.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't disagree, but it's worth remembering that in that 20mb/sec data rate Spider-Man was only required to load assets in the new cell that weren't already in RAM.

I don't really see the relevance to Brit's point. He wasn't suggesting even 20 MB/s is fairly good for streaming but that even though completely anaemic, clever design could make 20 MB/s fairly effective in some cases. Therefore, 100x that next gen means storage speed is clearly going be liberated for the first time for consoles.

 

[PSman1700]

t is. The sweat spot is the best balance between capacity, speed, latency and price

That's what consoles are all about, balance between performance and price ratio indeed

 

[Karamazov]

exclusive PS5 fast assets loading tech demo released !

 

[goonergaz]

Not if it costs more and gains nothing. You said you can never have too much RAM. You can, whatever that amount is. The sweat spot is the best balance between capacity, speed, latency and price, 32 GBs is likely to be imbalanced in favour of capacity or against cost.

Its been an interesting read on the RAM being only 16gb, I guess the savings on RAM were worth the investment on SSD integration, with SSD adding more benefits than just adding more RAM. Great choice...really excited to see the benefits of SSD next gen, loading is my biggest bug bear.

 

[iroboto]

Its been an interesting read on the RAM being only 16gb, I guess the savings on RAM were worth the investment on SSD integration, with SSD adding more benefits than just adding more RAM. Great choice...really excited to see the benefits of SSD next gen, loading is my biggest bug bear.

Ray Tracing is a significant difference in rendering method. Completely different. And SSD will provide dramatic changes to how much detail or how fast we can load worlds. Combined with a super fast processor and 64 bit engines to allow for massive play spaces and a return to 3D Audio that has been missing since the hey days of Audigy vs Creative Labs...

next generation should completely trump over this generation in a real and unexpected way.

if we ignore the speculative numbers around performance, that itself is worth the admission to get either console.

If there was ever going to be a generation to buy both consoles for access to libraries (but you don't have to in theory), I think next generation is the one to do it. Curious to see what the exclusives will be like as next generation matures out of the launch window.

 

[ultragpu]

Would 36CU make sense for hardware raytracing tho? Doesn't the amount of CUs cause major impact on its performance? If Sony is pimping RT then wouldn't it be stupid to go narrow and fast?

 

[jlippo]

Would 36CU make sense for hardware raytracing tho? Doesn't the amount of CUs cause major impact on its performance? If Sony is pimping RT then wouldn't it be stupid to go narrow and slow?

In general RT means more surface points for shading.
More shading power the better.

Shading efficiency is also going to be very important, in RT its hard to guarantee that hitpoits have similar shaders/textures etc.(ie. In UE4 you can set different shader for RT and rasterization.)

RT also needs some for ray set ups and possibly during tracing. (depending on acceleration structure and hardware limitations.)

 

[ultragpu]

In general RT means more surface points for shading.
More shading power the better.

Shading efficiency is also going to be very important, in RT its hard to guarantee that hitpoits have similar shaders/textures etc.(ie. In UE4 you can set different shader for RT and rasterization.)

RT also needs some for ray set ups and possibly during tracing. (depending on acceleration structure and hardware limitations.)

So basically 36CU doesn't make sense then. 48CU+ at least I reckon.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

So basically 36CU doesn't make sense then. 48CU+ at least I reckon.

It's still going to be dependent on gfx clock as much as number of shader units.

 

[BRiT]

If Sony is pimping RT then wouldn't it be stupid to go narrow and slow?

What about 2GHz or above do you consider slow?

 

[PSman1700]

A 9TF and 4TF console?

https://www.ccn.com/the-playstation-5-is-about-to-milk-you-for-every-last-penny/

Then subscribtion services, unavoidable?