Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Kaotik]

I must admit that AMD really is really doing well, zen3 will be even better then zen2, and with a possible 80CU HBM2E monster coming in at 16 to 20TF they got a much better position then a decade ago.

Just to hold everyones horses, new architecture doesn't necessarily mean there's big changes. For example Bobcat and Jaguar & Puma are clearly similar, but AMD considers the latter two to be different architecture from the first (Family 14h vs 16h) ((also Hygon Dhyana is counted as separate architecture even when it's actually Zen with minimal differenes, Family 17h vs 18h, but this could be just to separate it from AMD's own products))

 

[PSman1700]

Just to hold everyones horses, new architecture doesn't necessarily mean there's big changes. For example Bobcat and Jaguar & Puma are clearly similar, but AMD considers the latter two to be different architecture from the first (Family 14h vs 16h) ((also Hygon Dhyana is counted as separate architecture even when it's actually Zen with minimal differenes, Family 17h vs 18h, but this could be just to separate it from AMD's own products))

True, but still, AMD is giving much more competition on all fronts compared to say 10 years ago. RDNA2 and Zen2 might not match Intel and Ampere (or even Turing), but their close. Give it a year or two and NV will have to level their prices.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If the only changes from RDNA1 to RDNA2 are ray-tracing and VRS, then that in itself is a major change. There are probably other things, but it's not like those are minor additions.

 

[mrcorbo]

Single-purchase cross-gen support:

Word from Matt @ NeoGAF that Sony has a system in place for this as well (should publishers choose to use it). Good on both MS and Sony for getting this right!

Edit: Kind of forgot that Sony had already had Cross-Buy, so they have a system in place even now. The commitment of support for all cross-gen first-party games is a nice addition, though.

 

[PSman1700]

If the only changes from RDNA1 to RDNA2 are ray-tracing and VRS, then that in itself is a major change. There are probably other things, but it's not like those are minor additions.

They are features, not power increase per TF (efficiency).

 

[Scott_Arm]

They are features, not power increase per TF (efficiency).

Ok ... So some % of improvements in occupancy are major, but the addition of ray tracing and variable-rate shading are minor?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Kind of forgot that Sony had already had Cross-Buy, so they have a system in place even now. The commitment of support for all cross-gen 1st party-games is a nice addition, though.

Yes, but word is there'll be 1st party Sony games on the PC too, like Horizon.
Though less likely, it'll be interesting to know if cross-buy will go to the PC too.

 

[iroboto]

They are features, not power increase per TF (efficiency).

those features may be very difficult to place into the chip without have to do some rearchitecture.

 

[PSman1700]

Ok ... So some % of improvements in occupancy are major, but the addition of ray tracing and variable-rate shading are minor?

They aren't minor. I had the idea that HW RT was widely known to be included on XSX, before the phil spencer post today. Though that some where wondering how much efficiency increase RDNA2 will bring.

A nice monday, 12TF RNDA2 confirmed, ray tracing 3d audio, MS's VRS etc. Now we know XSX has RT audio too, and basically confirms it's a AMD solution as with RT:

 

[Scott_Arm]

They aren't minor. I had the idea that HW RT was widely known to be included on XSX, before the phil spencer post today. Though that some where wondering how much efficiency increase RDNA2 will bring.

A nice monday, 12TF RNDA2 confirmed, ray tracing 3d audio, MS's VRS etc. Now we know XSX has RT audio too, and basically confirms it's a AMD solution as with RT:

So RT will definitely be used for audio, but it doesn't confirm that they're using TrueAudio Next. TrueAudio Next does not include ray tracing. Ray tracing complements TrueAudio Next, like it would any other audio solution. Rays can be used to determine occlusion, semi-occlusion, propagation for dynamic audio sources. A material-aware audio engine could use rays to calculate impulse responses for convolution effects, but those calculations could be done with TrueAudio Next or with DSPs, or on the CPU (likely not the CPU).

 

[PSman1700]

So RT will definitely be used for audio, but it doesn't confirm that they're using TrueAudio Next. TrueAudio Next does not include ray tracing. Ray tracing complements TrueAudio Next, like it would any other audio solution. Rays can be used to determine occlusion, semi-occlusion, propagation for dynamic audio sources. A material-aware audio engine could use rays to calculate impulse responses for convolution effects, but those calculations could be done with TrueAudio Next or with DSPs, or on the CPU (likely not the CPU).

RDNA2 most likely brings those features aswell.

 

[Globalisateur]

Them announcing their TF specs mean those are very most likely locked at this point. But i'd say the ram specs are not. Could still be 16GB or 20GB.

 

[bgroovy]

the most interesting part is that the leaks are confirmed. 120 fps are glorious, so I am happy they went with it. Also VRS is good to scratch some extra frames.

Being able to deliver 120fps is a fringe benefit of limiting your first party game design to something that will run on an original Xbox One. 120hz will probably fall off the same time as Xbox One compatibility is retired by MGS.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Being able to deliver 120fps is a fringe benefit of limiting your first party game design to something that will run on an original Xbox One. 120hz will probably fall off the same time as Xbox One compatibility is retired by MGS.

I'm not so sure. I can easily see cod multiplayer offering an optional 120Hz mode, for example. The game is always a base 60fps, and it'll probably be something sub-1440p, but they could do 1080p120 with upscaling, or something like that, for the multiplayer portion of the game. Let the user decide.

 

[chris1515]

With MS using 2, it's almost ensured Sony uses 2 too? This reduces the chances Sony has some custom RT solution as well i think. Same feature set for both, except VRS which could be just a software thing.

BTW, no talk about mesh shaders or anything about geometry.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1232022323001053184

He was principal engineer on PS5 until last month. I don't know what he means exactly but I am not sure so sure they use the same RT or VRS implementation than Microsoft.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthargett/

 

[Picao84]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1232022323001053184

He was principal engineer on PS5. I don't know what he means exactly but I am not sure so sure they use the same RT or VRS implementation than Microsoft.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthargett/

Is this confirming that PS5 is not using RDNA2 and is also using a custom ray tracing solution?

 

[anexanhume]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1232022323001053184

He was principal engineer on PS5. I don't know what he means exactly but I am not sure so sure they use the same RT or VRS implementation than Microsoft.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthargett/

I think he’s advertising PS5 capability in a pointed criticism of AMD’s arch in a rhetorical way that comes across as a flex.

Matt on ERA said their VRS implementations are similar, so I wouldn’t assume they’re not using VRS from RDNA2.

 

[Picao84]

I think he’s advertising PS5 capability in a pointed criticism of AMD’s arch in a rhetorical way that comes across as a flex.

That's my take as well, which lets the cat out the bag in what PS5 is not using.

 

[Osamar]

I tried my best a while back to make this determination:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2091763/

I think I concluded (from some weak research) that MS was Tier 2 (and some). AMD was Tier 1.
Nvidia was Tier 2

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3d12/vrs for the ones with time and knowledge...

 

[Kaotik]

I think he’s advertising PS5 capability in a pointed criticism of AMD’s arch in a rhetorical way that comes across as a flex.

Matt on ERA said their VRS implementations are similar, so I wouldn’t assume they’re not using VRS from RDNA2.

Or they're both using RDNA2 VRS and the software implementations differ
We only have couple patents on the subject, no RDNA2 chips to check if they're applied there.