Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[JoeJ]

Coincidentally, this -to some degree- agrees with the officially released AMD RT vision, they only list this phrase under their next gen RDNA hardware RT solution: "Select lighting effects for real time gaming", take note of the word "select", it's a curious choice of phrasing to be frank, especially when you read the category of Cloud, where the phrase full scene RT is mentioned, which implies a distinct difference RT wise between the two categories.

Yeah, but one could also think 'selected' means raster / RT hybrid, and 'full scene' means offline RT. Or something like that.
In any case their formulations are ??? - as always.

If he was considering RT hardware for PS4 it means they've been looking at this for a long time.

Did not knew about this. I was speculating about this 'Sony planned RT for next gen' scenario but did not seriously consider it.

Now everything makes sense. I believe!

 

[iroboto]

It's highly possible that Sony's custom solution was developed early on, before AMD was even aware that DXR is coming, Sony requested an integration with AMD APUs, and AMD assisted with that. Microsoft however requested a DXR compatible solution from AMD, as the Xbox will use DX12 and DXR.

The timeline could go like this:

-Some time in 2015 (possibly), Sony and NVIDIA are developing their own RT solutions
-Microsoft gets wind of that, decides Xbox needs RT, and gathers HIVs to settle on a standard for RT on the PC/Xbox
-Microsoft develops DXR with the help of NVIDIA, AMD and Intel (in that order)
-AMD starts developing their own RT solution for their PC GPUs and the Xbox
-NVIDIA releases their own CUDA RT solution compatible with DXR, and even makes their own Vulkan RT solution at the same time
-2 Years later, AMD successfully releases their RT solution simultaneously on PC and Xbox
-Sony's RT solution is not compatible with DXR, and is custom made

Hmm, not sure about this.
I think it would have had to have been sooner for this to happen. MS wouldn't know about Sony's plans either.
When DXR was made and put out there; there were no leaks of it coming. And we had demos running on Volta hardware and again later on Turing.
To even prepare for something like that would be over a year in advance. The APIs, discussion and everything would have needed to have started at _least_ in 2015. Given how fast companies can move, I doubt that MS could mobilize so quickly to start DXR _after_ learning about Sony and Vulkan.

I think it's pretty clear at least to me; since DX12 has started, MS has been working closely with Nvidia and AMD and putting many of their requirements in DX12 well in advance. which is why we've always seen nvidia cards launch with Tier 2 support on many of the newer features. See VRS Tier 2 for instance on Turing.
I'm sure the discussion around ray tracing is one of them as well.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I very much doubt MS including RT is because they caught wind of Sony pursuing it. It's an unknown for Sony back then, and realtime RT was far from realistic in 2014/15/16. MS, nVidia, the industry, is just moving that way anyway. If Sony and MS are working on RTRT, it's almost certainly just just independent, unrelated pursuits of the same technological path. It's very common for new ideas to be worked on independently by two or more parties (who then accuse each other of stealing ideas!).

 

[JoeJ]

MS wouldn't know about Sony's plans either.

It may not be relevant. If it's time for RT to happen, and seems it is, then likely many people work on it at the same time even if they don't know from each other.

Edit: beaten.

 

[DavidGraham]

Yeah, but one could also think 'selected' means raster / RT hybrid, and 'full scene' means offline RT. Or something like that.

Yes, but AMD must have some reason to word it in a distinct way like that, you don't just use the word "Select" when "hybrid" is also a widely used terminology. Besides, the software solution "RadeonPro" is also an offline solution, yet it doesn't carry the same description.

In any case their formulations are ??? - as always.

Yeah I have my suspicions.

When DXR was made and put out there; there were no leaks of it coming. And we had demos running on Volta hardware and again later on Turing.

NVIDIA was most likely developing RTX to run originally on CUDA/OptiX, they have a knack to make their own API extensions/or use CUDA to run their custom solutions, just like what happened with PhysX, HFTS, VXAO, HairWorks .. etc, (all of which got ported to DirectCompute/DX12 later on), they even created RT extensions for Vulkan at the same moment DXR got released.

So when the idea of DXR came along, NVIDIA made RTX compatible with DXR as well. Microsoft could have created DXR as a response to either NVIDIA or Sony, or both of them, or entirely on their own will, it doesn't matter really, what matters here is that Sony and NVIDIA's effort for RT predates DXR.

I think it's pretty clear at least to me; since DX12 has started, MS has been working closely with Nvidia and AMD and putting many of their requirements in DX12 well in advance

AMD lagging so far behind NVIDIA (RT wise) doesn't support this theory, Sony wouldn't use their own custom solution if AMD had a capable solution ready, the way I see it, either AMD didn't have something at that time (which is supported by them being so late), or their solution didn't satisfy Sony's requirement.

 

[Shortbread]

What makes the Gizmodo tipster (supposedly a 3rd party developer) a more relevant source on RT, he/she actually was the first to mention the name of the PS5 SDK (Prospero) before any other media outlet or source. I believe Jason Schreier confirmed Prospero as being PS5 SDK back in December.

Our tipster claims it’s called “Prospero.”

According to our tipster, earlier PS5 prototypes have been in the hands of developers since 2018, but Prospero, the current dev console, was first delivered to developers early this summer.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

AMD lagging so far behind NVIDIA (RT wise) doesn't support this theory, Sony wouldn't use their own custom solution if AMD had a capable solution ready, the way I see it, either AMD didn't have something at that time (which is supported by them being so late), or their solution didn't satisfy Sony's requirement.

Or Sony doesn't have a custom solution.

 

[turkey]

I think RT is always being dabbled in

March 3, 2014
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/x...ring-system-for-amazing-visuals/1100-6418060/

I am sure Sony said something similar. It may be a PR piece but I would think their internal tech team.are always testing things like this and working out how far off it is.

 

[DavidGraham]

Or Sony doesn't have a custom solution.

Of course, we shall see ..

But connecting the dots, I am heavily leaning toward Sony using custom RT solution (that is different from DXR), the same way I was heavily leaning toward consoles integrating hardware RT.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

What makes the Gizmodo tipster (supposedly a 3rd party developer) a more relevant source on RT, he/she actually was the first to mention the name of the PS5 SDK (Prospero) before any other media outlet or source. I believe Jason Schreier confirmed Prospero as being PS5 SDK back in December.

What do we think, was "V" style Prospero dev kit back from early summer delivered with actual APU or PC hardware? My assumption is, actual early APU, which would be Oberon.

 

[MrFox]

An array of tensilica cores with additional custom instructions specific to RT would be very flexible both for RT tasks and for audio. Cadence sells this IP as a semi-custom business and allows significant custmization.

 

[mpg1]

Of course, we shall see ..

But connecting the dots, I am heavily leaning toward Sony using custom RT solution (that is different from DXR), the same way I was heavily leaning toward consoles integrating hardware RT.

Sony has a custom solution because they are not using Microsoft's API?

Micrososft also has a custom solution becasue they are not using Sony's API.

 

[MrFox]

Sony has a custom solution because they are not using Microsoft's API?

Micrososft also has a custom solution becasue they are not using Sony's API.

AMD will have developped a hardware solution based on MS requirement for DXR, to be used on their own GPUs for PC. So it's logical MS would use AMD's implementation.

That is not the same situation with Sony.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

I very much doubt MS including RT is because they caught wind of Sony pursuing it. It's an unknown for Sony back then, and realtime RT was far from realistic in 2014/15/16. MS, nVidia, the industry, is just moving that way anyway. If Sony and MS are working on RTRT, it's almost certainly just just independent, unrelated pursuits of the same technological path. It's very common for new ideas to be worked on independently by two or more parties (who then accuse each other of stealing ideas!).

 

[HBRU]

Yes sure, Devs would love to work with three or four different RT pipelines in top of the different apis, in top of the different specs, and so on.

Exclusive content, no problem. Third party support, lower common denominator, or RT-OFF

As told before consoles cannot (or better should not) be too similar as anti-trust authorities (specially european) may rise a question of non competitive behavior (hidden cartel)....

A custom RT solution would have made sense in a 2019 PS5 scenario, with no AMD solution in sight for at least one more year, or ever at that time prior to the RTX line.

I keep wondering why would you invest in licensing costs (if it´s an external ip), engineering expenses to incorporate that RT block into the AMD GPU, extra software development, and what not, if at the end the easiest route if go the in house AMD way, that was a late 2020 development as your console.

Antitrust concerns

Console makers are not really interested in getting involved with custom hardware anymore...let alone tackle something like RT hardware(that would then have to work with the APU).

If it took Nvidia years and years just to get something semi-viable....and AMD is just now working on it. The chances Sony has been working on something AND that it's viable...is extremely small.

As small as beeing a car producer [emoji1]

But that's exactly what Sony have done with their custom ID Buffer in order to implement their own method of CBR or improved TAA. They came with their own hardware solution to resolve a problem tailored for their specific needs: how to display relatively sharp 4K with only 2X 1080p pixels.

And I actually expect that Sony will use some RDNA2 features ported on their custom RDNA GPU (the same way they used Vega features on their GCN GPU). But I won't be surprised if their solution is totally custom because they have already done it in the past.

Yes. Me too.
No suprise.

 

[Jay]

So is the suggestion also that Nvidia had to develop their RT solution to work with DXR?
Or just AMD.

I'm pretty sure that the issues around RT are pretty well known for years (decades) now.
So I'm sure any api would be flexable enough to handle however it's done, even if it was done using powervr solution.
Any additional features would be a different tier level.

Same way you have DX and Vulkan working on same hardware. The hardware wasn't built just to work for the API,

 

[Deleted member 13524]

There hasn't been any substantial sources of PS5 supposedly wanting to launch last year, it doesn't fit with any timeline.

Wasn't Jason Schreier who said Sony was planning for a 2019 release at some point, but they delayed one year to guarantee a stronger launch lineup?
If so, I'd say he's a very substantial source.

I mean if you want to use infinity fabric to connect a die to the system you can but even then it's a huge latency penalty. At that point, you'd probably move CPU off die too to balance it out. Why even make a ~300mm^2 die for the APU?

Maybe because the SoC is strictly AMD IP made on TSMC whereas the other is Sony/PowerVR/whomever IP maybe even built on another fab or node.

I disagree that its bonkers. I don't consider it highly plausible, but we've a number of pointers including Sony working on realtime RT solutions and employing RT talent.

There's also the fact that the github leak is showing RT tests for SeX's SoC, but none for the alleged PS5 SoC.
Add to that the fact that AMD claimed that Microsoft would be using their RT RDNA solution but didn't state the same for Sony, plus that Aquarius-something TSMC insider who's been on spot leaking die areas (did so for the SeX SoC also) saying the PS5 has a separate chip for RT.. and you have an actually good case for an off-chip RT solution on the PS5.

He said

“There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,” he says, “which I believe is the statement that people were looking for.”

Fair enough.
Does it cease to be GPU hardware if the RT is on a separate chip?
Would you consider the Xbox Xenos' daughter chip which had 10MB eDRAM and the rasterizer units, and was fabbed by NEC while the "main GPU" chip was made by TSMC and Globalfoundries, as not part of the GPU hardware?

I mean all "dedicated hardware" is going to offload it..that's the point of dedicated hardware is it not?....

No, you can have dedicated hardware to partially offload raytracing. Which is the case for Turing's implementation of fixed-function "RT units" that takes very little die area but is extremely taxing on the shader processors / SM units.
If Sony developed their own separate chip, I'd expect it to come with it's own set of non-flexible but very optimised ALUs. At the very least because having a RT chip that does everything with the help of the main GPU's ALUs could put a bottleneck into any inter-chip bandwidth.
Perhaps it would have also its own set of eDRAM too, since RT is very demanding on bandwidth.

 

[HBRU]

It's highly possible that Sony's custom solution was developed early on, before AMD was even aware that DXR is coming, Sony requested an integration with AMD APUs, and AMD assisted with that. Microsoft however requested a DXR compatible solution from AMD, as the Xbox will use DX12 and DXR.

The timeline could go like this:

-Some time in 2015 (possibly), Sony and NVIDIA are developing their own RT solutions
-Microsoft gets wind of that, decides Xbox needs RT, and gathers HIVs to settle on a standard for RT on the PC/Xbox
-Microsoft develops DXR with the help of NVIDIA, AMD and Intel (in that order)
-AMD starts developing their own RT solution for their PC GPUs and the Xbox
-NVIDIA releases their own CUDA RT solution compatible with DXR, and even makes their own Vulkan RT solution at the same time
-2 Years later, AMD successfully releases their RT solution simultaneously on PC and Xbox
-Sony's RT solution is not compatible with DXR, and is custom made

Sounds really reasonable

 

[Barrabas]

Hey Mark, does the PS5 contain only 36 CU's in the final APU?
Are we missing something from the total picture?
Separate RT hardware?

Say hello to Raymotion Engine!

 

[HBRU]

So ps5 is getting much more interesting [emoji1]...