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Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
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Tkumpathenurpahl
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From a selfish perspective of being an armchair tech nerd, I quite hope Sony & MS do make use of different RT solutions. I'd like to keep the discussion more interesting than comparisons between the Pro and X1X, which almost only ever amount to "the same, but different resolutions, in accordance with the gap in power."
If Sony were to use a non-AMD solution, in what way would it be incorporated into the system? Attached as a chiplet, or integrated into the SoC?
If Sony were to use a non-AMD solution, in what way would it be incorporated into the system? Attached as a chiplet, or integrated into the SoC?
I am with selfish guy [emoji14]
Tkumpathenurpahl
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The second hand market and game sharing don't make me feel the same way, because they've both long since settled into equilibrium with sales, so they're known quantities. They also come with certain drawbacks to the player: if someone wants to play something the moment it launches, they have to buy the thing new; if someone wants to play something without being beholden to their game sharing friend's play time, they have to buy their own copy.
Like you, I favour what's in my best interest, but my best interest isn't feeding subscription money to a service run on potentially questionable metrics, such as total hours played, which would make Fortnite appear to be a better game than Shadow of the Colossus.
Gamepass and PSNow are great services for older games, but I'm dubious that they're the right place for games to launch. I get why Microsoft did it - it's a great way of differentiating themselves from Sony's offering - but I'm not convinced it's sustainable. Maybe it is. I'm not going to lose any sleep over the matter, but I'd rather not lose high quality, narrative driven games, only to have them replaced by elaborate graphical storefronts for microtransactions.
I was looking for some sales data for Gears of War 5, and happened upon the following forum post, which details some of my concerns fairly well.
It could be anything, from a discrete chip on the mobo to a chiplet to a functional block attached to either CPU or GPU. Obviously integration make the idea of a discrete chip implausible, whereas something hanging off the existing GPU structure (or chiplet) using the existing RAM access would be a likely placement. Functionally, it could do something as different as process the scene independently and generate lighting detail only using simplified geometry and no surface shader evaluation. This could then be combined in GPU shaders for RT lighting+shadows, but not RT reflections. Something like that may be a good compromise for performance if it can be very fast and works with all lights, which is the primary differentiator between RT visuals and rasterised visuals and what makes RT look realistic. When it comes to reflections and refractions, the system could fall back to compute based solutions. Such a system may have better lighting than something RTX-like with worse reflections and refractions.
Such a processing thing could also help with 3D audio if audio can use the same tracing data/structure. The RT processor Thing could work with simplified surface/material properties - just colour, emission, and hardness for sound bouncing, hardwired for efficiency.
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Total speculation on my part but in that first wired article I got the impression that Cerny was hinting at exactly that.
upnorthsox
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I got the same impression.
Michellstar
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Yes sure, Devs would love to work with three or four different RT pipelines in top of the different apis, in top of the different specs, and so on.
Exclusive content, no problem. Third party support, lower common denominator, or RT-OFF
Big_Z suggested this. So he is no longer bombarded by pestering folks from both fanboy camps (at least until February). But in general, no one should put blind faith in internet rumors or supposed insiders, including the camp warriors pushing a one-sided narrative here.
upnorthsox
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If Sony, and that's a big If, if Sony has a non-AMD solution then its one that they've been working on for longer than the current next gen apu so they may be more comfortable with it than any AMD solution. And to be frank, AMD wasn't all that interested in an RT solution until NVidia started talking about it so they are not only late to the game but their solution is completely untested.
Michellstar
Regular
A custom RT solution would have made sense in a 2019 PS5 scenario, with no AMD solution in sight for at least one more year, or ever at that time prior to the RTX line.
I keep wondering why would you invest in licensing costs (if it´s an external ip), engineering expenses to incorporate that RT block into the AMD GPU, extra software development, and what not, if at the end the easiest route if go the in house AMD way, that was a late 2020 development as your console.
I am convinced the best RT would be the one AMD is working on. And the best 3D audio would be using a bunch of tensilica DSPs.
All those silicon IPs will have very long term support guarantees for later slim revisions and future console generations (for effortless BC). They will also have library support and devs familiarity.
It seems extremely dangerous to do anything custom in that context, unless they have a significant advantage.
All those silicon IPs will have very long term support guarantees for later slim revisions and future console generations (for effortless BC). They will also have library support and devs familiarity.
It seems extremely dangerous to do anything custom in that context, unless they have a significant advantage.
‘Custom RT Solution’ sounds a lot like ‘Custom Cell Processor That Was A Mess Nobody Really Loved Until After Few Years Of Trying’.
Nah. I do firmly believe, as a couch tech lover myself, but mostly as a good business man, that both Sony and MS basically went to AMD, asked them what they could get in a specific time frame, with a specific budget, with whatever specific features they wanted, and AMD went: “Here you go, this is what we can make, you need a box this big and a cooling solution this good to make this run without burning millions of houses down. Thank you for the money. Good luck”
The notion that somehow Sony (or MS) would take the AMD APU and glue whatever ‘custom RT hardware’ they supposedly have on it - and there is zero evidence that they would even know what on earth that would look like - is bonkers.
This thread should be renamed the Bonkers & Baseless Next Gen Hardware Thread.
Nah. I do firmly believe, as a couch tech lover myself, but mostly as a good business man, that both Sony and MS basically went to AMD, asked them what they could get in a specific time frame, with a specific budget, with whatever specific features they wanted, and AMD went: “Here you go, this is what we can make, you need a box this big and a cooling solution this good to make this run without burning millions of houses down. Thank you for the money. Good luck”
The notion that somehow Sony (or MS) would take the AMD APU and glue whatever ‘custom RT hardware’ they supposedly have on it - and there is zero evidence that they would even know what on earth that would look like - is bonkers.
This thread should be renamed the Bonkers & Baseless Next Gen Hardware Thread.
Console makers are not really interested in getting involved with custom hardware anymore...let alone tackle something like RT hardware(that would then have to work with the APU).
If it took Nvidia years and years just to get something semi-viable....and AMD is just now working on it. The chances Sony has been working on something AND that it's viable...is extremely small.
I have no idea why Sony would opt for a complete different manufacturer for the RT. XSX having TF advantage but also RT, and VRS?
The last mention of 'Klee' on B3D?
I don't see any reason you'd want a separate chip to do RT, especially when the entire APU is already a SOC. How are you going to do any low latency communication with the APU? What memory do you even talk to? We already know nvidia's solution is pretty tightly coupled into their GPU.
As for if Sony want their own custom RT solution. I think jury out on that but I doubt it. If they go with the same philosophy as the PS4, they wouldn't want some customize block that works differently than what developers would already use on PC. Also I think it's likely a native AMD solution will out perform any Sony solution being tacked on. Even if the Sony solution is different than Microsoft's, I think it's more like Microsoft customized their solution than Sony. Not only is Microsoft investing in a bigger chip, they seem to be more inclined to customize things.
As for if Sony want their own custom RT solution. I think jury out on that but I doubt it. If they go with the same philosophy as the PS4, they wouldn't want some customize block that works differently than what developers would already use on PC. Also I think it's likely a native AMD solution will out perform any Sony solution being tacked on. Even if the Sony solution is different than Microsoft's, I think it's more like Microsoft customized their solution than Sony. Not only is Microsoft investing in a bigger chip, they seem to be more inclined to customize things.
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