Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Globalisateur]

We've already seen hybrid approaches from developers making use of RTX cards. That's the approach we're likely to see for quite a few years, certainly in the realm of multiplatform games, because RTRT cards/consoles will be in the minority.

As for making use of ray tracing hardware outside of graphics, that was actually Sony's first official mention of ray tracing: for audio.

I'm not sure if there are other uses besides audiovisual though e.g. physics.

Actually, no. Cerny first talked about graphics application to the interviewer then about audio. Where did you read that ?

 

[PSman1700]

Actually, no. Cerny first talked about graphics application to the interviewer then about audio. Where did you read that ?

The audio part was more talked about in general.

 

[bgroovy]

The audio part was more talked about in general.

Only if you include the completely unrelated discussion about the dedicated 3D audio hardware in PS5.

 

[Shortbread]

Repost from Era, by modiz

AMD 'Big' Navi GPU Passes RRA Certification - Powerful New High-End Radeon Flagship?
After what seems like ages, there seems to be news on the high-end AMD GPU front. An AMD device codenamed "ATI-102-D18802" recently passed RRA certification and while this might seem like just a random string of digits, I used to trawl the now-dead Zauba all day long for relevant shipping...

wccftech.com

Usman Pirzada was one of the only people to correctly leak Navi information about its new architecture, design etc. already back in june 2018 so he is one of the most reliable sources on the topic, so please dont turn this into "lol wccftech". Back at a november 2018 article, where he was talking about the 40 compute unit die that is powering the 5700 and the 5700XT (again correctly leaking details on the first AMD Navi GPU), has has stated that this GPU will not be the one used on the PlayStation 5.

Now he has come again with this new article, detailing a GPU that passed certification, he explains how you can decode the certification number to figure out that this GPU is indeed of the Navi family and is significantly more powerful than "small" navi die. Of course, this big Navi die, at least the desktop, is going to be more powerful than the desktop parts.

Now here is the interesting part:

Considering it just passed the certification, we are likely looking at the RDNA2-based full Navi die that will support ray tracing at a hardware level. This is the same GPU that will power the next-generation Playstation 5 and the Xbox as well (remember AMD designed Navi for the consoles, read more about that over here). In all likelihood, we are finally catching our first glimpse of "big" Navi. You might remember my exclusive published a year and a half back that predicted that the flagship Navi part won't land earlier than 2H 2019 or early 2020. Well, there you have it, folks, it's finally happening.

 

[PSman1700]

Now here is the interesting part:

How they know that? Insider information, or just guessing cause it has ray tracing? My guess is it will be a custom solution, like the PS4/xone had, but based on a certain GPU. Many where pointing to Navi10 Lite whatever that means.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Actually, no. Cerny first talked about graphics application to the interviewer then about audio. Where did you read that ?

Aye, my mistake. It seems I was conflating the chatter on here with:

According to Cerny, the applications go beyond graphic implications. “If you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that,” he says. “It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.”

and also:

The AMD chip also includes a custom unit for 3D audio that Cerny thinks will redefine what sound can do in a videogame.

If I remember correctly, we were all speculating on here whether that meant there would be ray tracing hardware akin to RTX, or if it was some sort of audio specific/pared down form.

But, demonstrably, my "if I remember correctly" isn't worth a damn.

 

[anexanhume]

How they know that? Insider information, or just guessing cause it has ray tracing? My guess is it will be a custom solution, like the PS4/xone had, but based on a certain GPU. Many where pointing to Navi10 Lite whatever that means.

I believe Komachi came to the conclusion that "Lite" simply meant it was an APU.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

emulation DXR is horrendous. It’s clear rolling your own RT solution is substantially better in this case.
Surprised by 1X results. Fairly positive UWP locks the amount of hardware you have access to.

Or, don't rely on a hardware vendor trying to sell hardware making an efficient software emulation of the hardware feature they are trying to sell.

Same thing happened with PhysX.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shortbread]

I believe Komachi came to the conclusion that "Lite" simply meant it was an APU.

I wonder if "Lite" is mostly related to mobile devices such as tablets.

 

[anexanhume]

I wonder if "Lite" is mostly related to mobile devices such as tablets.

I don’t think a die as large as Navi 10 would appear in such a form factor.

 

[Shortbread]

I don’t think a die as large as Navi 10 would appear in such a form factor.

Probably not. I was thinking more along the lines of cut down Navi/Ryzen based APU that could compete with the likes of Intel or Nvidia within such a small form factor. Something very battery-efficient (more so than Nvidia's Tegra chips) which Nintendo could possibly view as an option in future handheld systems.

 

[ultragpu]

Most intriguing shortbread. It does fit the narrative of an APU using hardware raytracing which is missing on the 5700 series, also how the prospective performance to match Klee's (another reliable insider) description of double digit TFs. The downside tho is the wattage would be way too high wouldn't it, we're talking about 400w console here. But that ginormous PS5 devkit design is making more sense by the minute .

Spoiler

12.9 RDNA TF lives!

 

[HBRU]

400 watt console ? Wow Greta Tumberg will be happy about...

 

[Deleted member 13524]

400 watt console ? Wow Greta Tumberg will be happy about...

She's likely to kill PS5 users in their sleep.

 

[iroboto]

Another compute based ray tracing result.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189074286792888320

Now very curious as to what the tests are for and whether we see some compute based RT features showing up in the next ID software title. X1X continuing to show good performance in UWP. Very confusing so I asked to see what was happening here. Pretty sure he’s only supposed to get a small fraction of the GPU under UWP unless he’s using a different devkit setup entirely.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Pretty sure he’s only supposed to get a small fraction of the GPU under UWP unless he’s using a different devkit setup entirely.

Nope.

• CPU
  • Apps: share of 2-4 CPU cores depending on the number of apps and games running on the system.
  • Games: 4 exclusive and 2 shared CPU cores.
• GPU
  • Apps: share of 45% of the GPU depending on the number of apps and games running on the system.
  • Games: full access to available GPU cycles.
• DirectX support
  • Apps: DirectX 11 Feature Level 10.
  • Games: DirectX 12, and DirectX 11 Feature Level 10.
• All apps and games must target the x64 architecture in order to be developed or submitted to the store for Xbox.

For application development, resources available may be limited in comparison to a standard PC and can vary based on the number of apps and games running on the system.

For games development, Xbox One, like other games consoles, is a specialized piece of hardware that requires a specific hardware-based development kit to access its full potential. If you are working on a game that requires access to the maximum potential of the Xbox One hardware, consider registering with the ID@Xbox program to get access to an Xbox One development kit.​

 

[iroboto]

Nope.

• CPU
  • Apps: share of 2-4 CPU cores depending on the number of apps and games running on the system.
  • Games: 4 exclusive and 2 shared CPU cores.
• GPU
  • Apps: share of 45% of the GPU depending on the number of apps and games running on the system.
  • Games: full access to available GPU cycles.
• DirectX support
  • Apps: DirectX 11 Feature Level 10.
  • Games: DirectX 12, and DirectX 11 Feature Level 10.
• All apps and games must target the x64 architecture in order to be developed or submitted to the store for Xbox.

For application development, resources available may be limited in comparison to a standard PC and can vary based on the number of apps and games running on the system.

For games development, Xbox One, like other games consoles, is a specialized piece of hardware that requires a specific hardware-based development kit to access its full potential. If you are working on a game that requires access to the maximum potential of the Xbox One hardware, consider registering with the ID@Xbox program to get access to an Xbox One development kit.​

hmm interesting. I guess I read that wrong. hmmmmm maybe I should get around to unlocking the dev on my console.
**
Maximum available memory while running in the foreground:

• Apps: 1 GB
• Games: 5 GB

but he got around it like this:

Note

When running your app or game from the Visual Studio debugger, these memory constraints do not apply. This limit is only applicable when not running in debugging mode.

Thanks for the link though; that sheds a lot of light on the results here. I think when he lists UWP he doesn't mean using the ID@XBOX devkit. But I didn't realize that UWP games could access 100% of the GPU. I thought it was 45%

 

[AlNom]

Another compute based ray tracing result.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189074286792888320

Now very curious as to what the tests are for and whether we see some compute based RT features showing up in the next ID software title.

Looks like a set of tests ramping up in complexity. I assume the Cornell one is the RGB-box room with things in it to look at surface lighting direction/transfer. The bunny might be about angles/AO. I had the impression Sponza is a benchmark for bounce lighting ("Cry" being within Cryengine or including changes/assets Crytek made on there?).

 

[JoeJ]

I assume the Cornell one is the RGB-box room with things in it to look at surface lighting direction/transfer.

I guess he did just the same AO short rays for all scenes. XBX only dominates Cornell, which is the scene of just 3 boxes, so about 30-40 triangles? Likely what we see is GCN ALU power, not limited by incoherent memory access in this scene.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I assume the Cornell one is the RGB-box room with things in it to look at surface lighting direction/transfer. The bunny might be about angles/AO.

They're just the standard scenes for graphics comparison and benchmarking. Cornell Box goes back to the 80s and was a physical construct for reference. Stanford Bunny (and Stanford Dragon) are scanned models with high detail. Sponza is the old reference architecture repeatedly seen in recent GI solution tests. If you're doing any graphics R&D, you'll be using these assets so comparisons can be drawn with everyone else using the same assets.

Possibly got from here:
https://casual-effects.com/data/

I guess he did just the same AO short rays for all scenes. XBX only dominates Cornell, which is the scene of just 3 boxes, so about 30-40 triangles?

Good guess! 36 triangles, 68 vertices.