Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

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When you go to a restaurant, do you also order the plate and cutlery when telling the waiter what you want to eat? I mean the menu doesn't really specify that the food is coming in a plate, nor that they'll serve you a fork and a knife.

Honestly, if restaurants had a history of false hyping and outright bullshitting just remotely close to that of Technology, I wouldn't even sit on a chair without checking digital foundry's analysis of it's sturdiness.
 
2 - Why wouldn't the console be able to render at 8K (or stuff like 5K + reconstruction) in some games?
The issue isn't the presence but the degree. 8K output will be supported. Some games will be 8K. Most won't. Same way PS3 was labelled a '1080p console' and you could play Pixel Junk Monsters in Full HD, but not Uncharted or anything major.

You are right in that Cerny's comments and the slides show raytracing is a present feature. That does not tell us to what degree. Is it the same as PS3's 1080p feature, a small niche feature barely capable of being used? Or is it a bedrock part of the future rendering pipeline with substantial hardware investment? There is at this point no way of knowing for sure.

The SSD debate you refer to doesn't show the doubting is fallacious because the argument wasn't that there was no SSD, but that it wasn't proven there was an SSD. And it wasn't. It was a Schroedinger's Cat situation. It was a murder trial with some evidence pointing to the person being guilty but not at all conclusively. There could have been an SSD or there could have been something SSD-like such as mobo flash. Given a 50/50 chance of there being an SSD in there when the truth comes out, 'doubters' being 'proven wrong and there always was an SSD all along' is a matter of chance rather than logic. The pure logic showed it was uncertain. Likewise, the pure logic shows '8K' support does not mean there's enough power in there that all the AAA games will be playing at 8K native and 'ray tracing' does not mean there's bucket-loads of raytracing hardware in there. You can feel free to believe there is and use that to base your predictions, but there's no conclusive evidence yet of the nature of that feature's implementation and people are right to entertain different possiblities to the one you believe, even if you end up being right.
 
You are right in that Cerny's comments and the slides show raytracing is a present feature. That does not tell us to what degree.
I agree with everything you said, just wanted to add my additional thoughts on it.
Most of the time people will equate saying something not being confirmed in the manner that people present it, to mean saying it won't have it, it will be weaker, etc.
When that's not what is being said, it could be stronger, better, more efficient, the point is we don't know what the implementations are, so we have no idea based on the information given.
 
. It’s not like how PS4Pro and X1X are designed purposefully to run games at 4K.
You're right or wrong depending on what you define as "run games".
If by saying "run games at 4K" you very specifically mean the internal rendering resolution is 3840*2160, then you're right.
I agree with the devs who say the internal render resolution isn't a very important metric, and what counts is the actual image output being substantially better than a regular 1080p output. And from that POV, both the PS4Pro and XBoneX are consoles made for 4K output, hence designed purposefully to run games at 4K.


Honestly, if restaurants had a history of false hyping and outright bullshitting just remotely close to that of Technology, I wouldn't even sit on a chair without checking digital foundry's analysis of it's sturdiness.
When did Sony or Microsoft false advertise features, say in the last 10 years?
Honest question.
I remember features that were eventually dropped because no one cared for them, but atm I can't find any blatant dishonesty in the order of what's being discussed here (Sony talking about real time raytracing every time they talk about the PS5, only to have a tiny use of it because there's no actual hardware acceleration).
Maybe the only exception I do remember is Microsoft claiming cloud processing on XBone.


The issue isn't the presence but the degree. 8K output will be supported. Some games will be 8K. Most won't.
Yeah well, change 8K for VR in the PS4.
Does that shock people less? VR is supported. Some games will be VR, most won't.
I don't think most games will run at 8K at least until they release a half-gen, but the capability to do so is there so that's a feature.
But the PS5 will be a 8K capable console just as much as the PS4 is a VR capable console.
And no one is claiming that VR in the PS4 is some kind of dishonest marketing, is there?


I guess I’m not sold on the idea that we’re going to see RT 4K 60fps or 8K 30 FPS super fidelity graphics.
Discussing how much the PS5 / RDNA+ / RDNA2 can do of raytracing given a plausible X amount of GPU compute teraflops might not be a fruitful conversation.
All we know is how much compute power the first implementation of the first AIB needs to apply an amount of RT effects that make a discernible difference.
For all we know, nVidia's second RT implementation for Geforces could be able to do 10x more in-game RT effects with the same amount of compute by passing more RT stuff towards fixed-function units and/or using lower precision, and AMD's / Sony's / Microsoft's implementation could be similar in that regard.
I've seen devs claiming that Turing is drawing way too much precision on their real-time raytracing implementation. Which honestly makes sense because RT in Turing seems to have been made for offline rendering, as claimed by many.


This is not for the next-generation playstation out of one comment by the Sony CEO about realtime raytracing. The image is from a 40 GPU demo...:mrgreen:
I wonder if he meant 40 "cores" (as in CUs) and that got somehow lost in translation.
 
Yeah well, change 8K for VR in the PS4.
Does that shock people less? VR is supported. Some games will be VR, most won't.
I don't think most games will run at 8K at least until they release a half-gen, but the capability to do so is there so that's a feature.
But the PS5 will be a 8K capable console just as much as the PS4 is a VR capable console.
And no one is claiming that VR in the PS4 is some kind of dishonest marketing, is there.
It's not about dishonesty, but confirming the nature of raytracing hardware. You cited the slide as evidence there was significant raytracing hardware and capability. I'm pointing to the same slide showing 8K and we all know the nature of that 8K. So then apply that same 8K interpretation to the raytracing interpretation. It's clearly unqualified. Just as the 8K label means anything from 'full native 8K for all games' to '8K output support with all games upscaled', the raytracing label means anything from 'proprietary raytracing hardware providing full realtime photorealistic raytracing for all games' to 'ability to use raytracing algorithms to add some embellishments like low-res reflections and accurate shadows.'

The only thing we know for sure is PS5 supports raytracing in some fashion. Everything else is guesswork.
 
PS4Pro and XBoneX are consoles made for 4K output

In case of in special the Pro, it does more often then not render in true 4k, so it really depends. Output yes, true native 4k not really. Far below that for most games actually.

I don't think most games will run at 8K at least until they release a half-gen, but the capability to do so is there so that's a feature.

A GTX 1080 has the capability to do RT, so nvidia should really call that a feature of the GTX line too, and AMD perhaps for its RX line. It most likely is just a check list feature though, it could be another ID buffer too, but let's hope not.
8k support, RT support etc are so far marketing features.

'ability to use raytracing algorithms to add some embellishments like low-res reflections and accurate shadows.'

Most realistically, RT will mean something like that for the PS5, and probably Xbox if they go the same route, which i assume they do.
 
Showing it has likely nothing to do with PlayStation as it's wider technology with social implications. Move along; there is nothing to see here.
Thinking the motion picture/render farm type of thing. A service sold or for internal use for movies etc.
 
Thinking the motion picture/render farm type of thing. A service sold or for internal use for movies etc.
This made me think about AMD's plan for ray tracing
ray-tracing-amd-vision2-768x768.jpg
 
https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/irday/archive.html

better from gofreak on resetera

direct quote of Sony CEO from technology day

One of our exhibits today is Ray Tracing.

Ray Tracing which enables highly realistic visual expression by reproducing traces of light.

It is widely used in movie production. Our production studio, Sony Picture Imageworks is receiving major acclaim for their work in the areas of computer generated images and visual effects. This technology was put to great use in Spiderman: Into The Spiderverse and contributed significantly to making it the first title from Sony Pictures to win the Academy award for best animated picture. When films and drama series are produced, time is allocated to generating high quality images and ray tracing is used to heighten spatial resolution and realism.

In contrast, today we will be demonstrating our research into the future possibilities of ray tracing with an emphasis on high quality, realtime rendering. Our ability to deliver realtime rendering, high speed delineation and other forms of temporal value is also an area of focus for our next generation (PlayStation) development.

Nothinh interesting just they have some form of raytracing inside PS5 but it was in the Wired inerview...
 
They said next PlayStation. Could be a "ps4 eco" with some green logo for all we know...

Edit : my bad, i missed a crucial word :eek:
 
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They said next PlayStation. Could be a "ps4 eco" with some green logo for all we know...
I am also very pleased to announce the next generation PlayStation console will include the possibility to suspend gameplay with much lower power consumption than PS4 (which we estimate can be achieved at around 0.5 W).

Seems pretty clear to me.
 
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