Next Gen GPU architecture GCN, RDNA, Navi 10/20 (PS5 Navi Hybrid, Xbox Navi Pure) *spawn*

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Well it's just a question of numbers... How many copies of FIFA PS4 and how many copies of FIFA PS5 are going to be sold this year ? Also -as Sony stated- ps4 FIFA players should be able to play with ps5 FIFA players.... You can call this BC or FC... What I mean PS4 and PS5 needs to be much compatible systems... That means also somehow syncronized. Similar GPU structure of course helps. That's why I belive in the rumor that we are talking here about.

Similar GPU structure helps in FC... That's a fact. And FC helps in selling games... Specially -of course- till new gen is not well spreaded.... I haven't seen such a rush in upgrading to Ps4-pro... Also Sony has not seen that !!!
 
Entropy said:
While you have a point that CPU load can't necessarily be scaled with the same ease as GPU load, I think you overstate it. Forward compatibility only applies when new games are developed. So rather than having 50 people milling about, they would in the case of previous gen hardware detected, only have 20. This has been done time and again, and it works - these kinds of characters are only environmental fillers anyway.
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That was just a simple example, but there will be a huge difference in performance of CPU that it would be a port of the game, not just scaling it down.
Even that simple example your assuming the npc's are just milling about. Running through a croud of 5 compared to 50 is a very different experience and you would need to design for it.
Like I said this isn't whether a game can be ported, which sometimes results in a vastly different game anyway, the discussion was about forward compatibility which isn't about porting a game.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I doubt hardware similarities are at all a concern. As long as the ecosystems are different, they're competing rivals. But what would happen if they did join forces though? Let's say there's only XStation 5 next-gen. What's to stop that happening? What trade commission would take what actions to stop that (and in the process kill the generation and force consumers to have to pick between platforms)?
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Were Microsoft and Sony to embark on such a collaboration, their respective legal counsels would advise that they are creating a defacto monopoly in the videogame console market and seek regulatory approval from the FTC in the US and the EU in Europe. Just like Microsoft did when they acquired a lump of Nokia (even though Microsoft and Nokia were insignificant in the phone space at the time) and Sony did when it acquired a competing sensor manufacturing for their CCD camera business.

The EU definitely would sanction (block) this because it's impossible to approve something that contravenes the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. In the EU there is already a requirement for "special responsibility" for companies operating if they have greater than 39.7% market share, i.e. Sony already are subject to this. You can bet that Sony's MOU with Microsoft on cloud, was looked at very carefully indeed but given Sony aren't in the cloud business and Microsoft are, this doesn't represent lack of market competition.

The EU block mergers and collaborative efforts all the time, like Alstom and Siemens just a few months ago because the new venture would result in a monopoly in the rail sector.
 
What about the many CPU tasks that where put to GPU execution in PS4 because of weak Jaguars ? Are they so well emulated if GPU structure is totally different ?
 
HBRU said:
You can call this BC or FC.
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No, you can't. BC and FC are two very specific, different qualities that need to be engineered into a design.

Easy portability between PS4 and PS5 doesn't require either. You can have similarities in hardware without being FC.
Similar GPU structure helps in FC... That's a fact. And FC helps in selling games... Specially -of course- till new gen is not well spreaded.... I haven't seen such a rush in upgrading to Ps4-pro...
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Of course not - it's a mid-gen refresh and not a new console. The rush to upgrade to PS5 should be the same as from PS1 to PS2, and PS2 to PS3, and PS3 to PS4.

You're looking at completely the wrong evidence when formulating your theories.
 
I'm really hoping the additional CPU resources will be used to bring us better simulation of virtual worlds and AI. Cross generation titles isn't something I want to see, let the existing xbox and playstation base stream if they don't want to upgrade but ideally we don't compromise the new software.
 
I underground the need of uncompromised games for BC... But sorry sirs companies looks at numbers...

Yes BC and FC is something different. But on PS4 structure you cannot do anything... On the opposite is possible to make a PS5 that makes easier to develop edge games on ps4 that then are easily upgradable on ps5 without much efforts... Mainly -I say- in terms of FPS and loading times...
 
HBRU said:
I underground the need of uncompromised games for BC... But sorry sirs companies looks at numbers...
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Your argument completely flies in the face of all the other previous generations, which you just keep ignoring.

Yes BC and FC is something different. But on PS4 structure you cannot do anything... On the opposite is possible to make a PS5 that makes easier to develop edge games on ps4 that then are easily upgradable on ps5 without much efforts... Mainly -I say- in terms of FPS and loading times...
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You've made your point. Why do you keep repeating it when you don't add any new or different arguments? PS5 will be able to play PS4 games with faster load times and possibly at higher framerates thanks to similarities in architecture (x64 CPU, AMD GPU). It has been designed with BC in mind, and Sony have clearly put a lot of work into supporting PS4 games on PS5.

There is nothing unique to this generation requiring special consideration, unless you can present some actual evidence. There is nothing about next-gen that means devs will want to keep making current-gen games for the next five years and have them run on new machines slightly improved. Devs will want to migrate to new technologies the same they do every generation so they can make better games. Again, if you disagree with this, present some actual evidence or a reasonable argument. If all you're going to do is repeat the same POV, that's not a discussion and not worth your time.
 
Yes. You said AMD GPU. This is the point. Navi 10 looks like to be Vega & Polaris "friendly" while Navi 20 NOT. That's why I say ps5 is going have 10 and not the 20. Basically Sony just needs to double PS4-pro calc power and no others trouble. Also makink not too powerful its going cost less and disturb less the concurrents that so will not be in hurry to follow. Also possible to release early. Maybe April 2020...
 
Is there really such a thing as FC? It doesn’t seem so imo.

I only ask because on PC I don’t think FC is a thing but older PC configurations can continue to run newer and newer titles. But once the hardware is no longer supported, say your card only supports up to DX9 and the game released are are DX11 based, it can no longer run those dx11 games

Is definition of being FC is for this hypothetical DX9 GPU to suddenly support DX11? And if they managed to firmware patch it to support dx11, this is undesirable?
 
Forwards compatibility is effectively an architecture, like x86. It means an x86 processor can run code designed for future x86 processors, just slower. It can involve abstraction layers to enable mapping to different hardware. The important point about FC is that when you buy a device, you know it'll run future software as new devices come out. When you bought PS4 or XB1, you knew it'd run all games for PS4/XB1 even if a slim or mid-gen refresh were released.

Backwards compatibility is having a new design run old code. One way is emulation - Xbox. Another is including the old hardware - PlayStation. Another is to design your new system around the old one - Wii.

There has never been a console that's forwards compatible. Even GC wasn't FC with Wii and couldn't play Wii games. I guess one could argue GameBoy was FC with GBC, but that was more a case of a 'mid-gen refresh'. It's mobile devices and PCs that know they are going to have frequent hardware updates and need to ensure users aren't left behind after one/two years that have FC designed into the architecture and OS. Consoles operate on clean breaks, with 5+ years between generations being plenty enough value for users' investment, and only need consider BC as an option if economical and without impacting the value of the new platform. It makes sense to make PS5 compatible with PS4 games where possible due to similarities, in exactly the same way it made sense not to have PS4 BC with PS3 as that would have either cost too much or hampered PS4's architecture by making it compatible. It makes no sense to make PS5 compatible on a level such that PS5 games run on PS4, architecting PS5 as an iteration of PS4.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Forwards compatibility is effectively an architecture, like x86. It means an x86 processor can run code designed for future x86 processors, just slower. It can involve abstraction layers to enable mapping to different hardware. The important point about FC is that when you buy a device, you know it'll run future software as new devices come out. It makes no sense to make PS5 compatible on a level such that PS5 games run on PS4, architecting PS5 as an iteration of PS4.
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Just thinking out loud on this, and I’ve always been against BC, I’ll put this out there. Do you think it’s possible to engineer two tiers of graphics settings in ps5 games so they could run on the ps4? If so that may help absorb the massive dollars in development costs for the game and split it between the two systems. It could open up new opportunities and new IPs then otherwise would be possible?

And maybe for ps4 owners who bought ps5 games and upgrade to the ps5 hardware later on their purchased games would upgrade automatically for free or a small fee?
 
Sure, don't use the more powerful CPU, don't use the larger quantity of memory, don't use the higher memory bandwidth, don't use the insanely quicker SSD, don't use RayTracing, and be sure to use a dynamic engine with dynamic resolution that dynamically turns off or drastically scales down graphical effects. It's the same way you see current-gen games ported to Nintendo Switch.
 
I would expect so, considering the AMD Navi products go on sale in July? Though I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they said nothing directly about RT RT.
 
There was hinting that they were going to talk about there RT tech, don't know if that was for tonight though.
 
borntosoul said:
Just thinking out loud on this, and I’ve always been against BC, I’ll put this out there. Do you think it’s possible to engineer two tiers of graphics settings in ps5 games so they could run on the ps4?
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Yes. It's called having a cross platform engine and porting. ;)

If so that may help absorb the massive dollars in development costs for the game and split it between the two systems. It could open up new opportunities and new IPs then otherwise would be possible
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I don't think so. Any IP that needs numbers can target PS4 this year and next. Any IP that needs better tech needs to target next-gen and not be hampered by this one.

And maybe for ps4 owners who bought ps5 games and upgrade to the ps5 hardware later on their purchased games would upgrade automatically for free or a small fee?
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Again, it's never been an issue. Let them BC their game on PS5. There won't be that many games that PS4 owners will want to replay in enhanced quality; it's not worth the costs and sacrifices supporting a niche requirement.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Yes. It's called having a cross platform engine and porting. ;)

I don't think so. Any IP that needs numbers can target PS4 this year and next. Any IP that needs better tech needs to target next-gen and not be hampered by this one.

Again, it's never been an issue. Let them BC their game on PS5. There won't be that many games that PS4 owners will want to replay in enhanced quality; it's not worth the costs and sacrifices supporting a niche requirement.
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It’s going to be a very interesting launch that’s for sure.
 
Only one console being launched by Microsoft:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/xbox-future-project-scarlett-phil-spencer-interview-2019-6

“Last year we said consoles, and we’ve shipped a console and we’ve now detailed another console. I think that’s plural,” Spencer said.

The console that Microsoft shipped earlier this year, of course, was not a new Xbox console – it was a disc-less version of its already existing Xbox One S hardware.

“Technically that is plural,” Spencer said with a laugh after I pushed him on the technicality he invoked. “Right now,” he said, “we’re focused on Project Scarlett and what we put on stage.”
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There. Rumors about 2 different next gen xboxes squashed.
 
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