The Official, Long Awaited, TV Shows Thread

I'm still mostly surprised that the backlash against GoT is coming now. I thought season 7 was a disaster, and the Beyond the Wall episode was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I mainly agree that it has been rushed and what is happening should have had more build up, but my overall opinion is that they're making the best out of the situation they've been caught in.

There has been much talk about Daenerys already, but I reacted already when reading the book, when she agreed to trade one dragon for the army and then betrayed them. It has been obvious to me since then that Daenerys is very much that the end justifies the means.

I agree that both season 7 and 8 were rushed with wide distances being done in 2 minutes lol. I wouldn't call them a disaster though (I'll need to watch Beyond the Wall again to see if I agree). I also obviously agree that Daenerys is like you say and that she was a wolf in sheep clothing all the time. People reactions reminds of that mate who has been dating a b***h, his friends know, everyone knows, but he is incredibly shocked when he discovers she has been f*****g around lol.

She has no honour (which makes it hard to swallow John Snow falling for her, unless it's done to finally show the fans what a complete idiot he is), she has only cared for herself, always. That includes "caring" for people who bend the knee and adore her, no one else.
 
I just saw a very long thorough summary of Daenerys through all the seasons and how what she did is very much in her character from season 1. In fact, her turning into a saviour persona in the middle of season 2 / Season 3 was out of character, despite no one noticing it and getting outraged lol.

The show has spent 8 seasons signaling the ways that war makes monsters out of people and that Daenerys in particular has a deep capacity for cruelty that is only checked when her ego is being sufficiently fed. That Daenerys is motivated by revenge and ego has been seeded from the very beginning of the show.

To be clear, Jorah wasn't entirely wrong to see a "gentle heart" in his queen. There's no reason to believe her opposition to slavery, for instance, is insincere. But loving Daenerys and rooting for her, from the beginning, has meant ignoring the constant reminders that she not only has a strong capacity for cruelty, but that nothing drives her to murder faster than sensing that someone doesn't worship the ground she walks on.

This is the same woman, after all, who was in love with Khal Drogo, a murderous warlord whose life was literally about sacking villages and towns to kidnap people to sell into slavery. And it's in that storyline that we first see that Daenerys expects people to see her as a savior figure and if they express skepticism, she lashes out with a murderous rage of her own.

That would be, of course, the story of Mirri Maz Duur, a Lhazareen priestess whose village is ransacked by the Dothraki and who is about to be raped when Daenerys intercedes, and takes her on as a personal slave. Daenerys clearly believes that Mirri should be grateful to her and Drogo, and so is caught completely flat-footed with Mirri, pretending to offer medical care, does some mojo that leaves Drogo comatose and Daenerys's newborn son dead.

When Daenerys confronts Mirri about this, saying Mirri should be grateful that she "saved" her, Mirri points out that she'd been raped three times, she "saw my god's house burn" and the streets were piled with the corpses of people she knew and loved.

"Tell me again exactly what it was that you saved?" she finished.

In response, Daenerys burns Mirri to death.

In doing so, she creates the magic that allows her to hatch dragon eggs. It's so wondrous that the audience basically forgets that they just saw a woman burned alive for resisting captivity. But now it is clear to see that the ingredient needed to make the magic work, to bring forth dragons, was Daenerys's will to power and cruelty.

Since then, the story lured audiences into rooting for Daenerys by making her mission — to end slavery in Essos — an undeniably admirable one. But the show also portrayed her motivations as less than selfless, including that controversial scene at the end of season three, when Daenerys is held up by a crowd of mostly brown-skinned people chanting "Mhysha" — the Valyrian word for "mother" — while she basked in the adoration and in her white savior complex.

Loving Daenerys as a savior figure required ignoring a whole bunch of signs of her unchecked ego and her cruelty. She gets into repeated conflicts in Qarth and Astapor and Yunkai, often killing her enemies in breathlessly cruel ways, including burning, starving them to death, and crucifixion. She liberates people but then grows bored of the thankless work of governing, abandoning cities she's conquered over and over again.

Many of her vicious executions are easy to forgive, because the people she kills really are jerks, such as the slave masters, the warlocks of Qarth and imperious Dothraki horselords. But sometimes it's a lot harder to stuff the killings down the memory hole, such as with Mirri's murder or the killing of Randall and Dickon Tarly, whose main crime was being skeptical of accepting the rule of a foreign invader.

This is literally the woman who insists on being called "Daenerys of the House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons." The show has not hidden that she has an ego, and there is nothing sudden about this.

The burning of King's Landing, then, is no different than the burning of Mirri in the first season. Daenerys is frustrated that the people of Westeros don't love her and she's explicitly said so repeatedly. She's frustrated that she led the army that defeated the Night King, but that most people don't know or care. She wants the people of Westeros to carry on their shoulders yelling "Mhysha," and since they won't do it, she's furious.

Fans lived in denial for the same reason that the almost exclusively male characters that surround Daenerys — Tyrion, Jorah, Jon — live in denial: She's young and she's pretty and she embraces the nurturing title of "Mother." It's tempting to see her good side and ignore her bad side, and the same fans who are scorning Jon Snow for not seeing it before fell into the same trap that ensnared him.

What's important to remember in all this is that Daenerys's conquest of Westeros is illegitimate. Yes, she happened to land on Dragonstone at a time when Queen Cersei, a tyrant who murders her own people, is in charge, and so it makes it easier to root for Daenerys. And certainly, people who want to oust Cersei — such as Jon and Tyrion and Varys — for their own reasons are happy to back Daenerys because it's politically convenient for them to do so.

But despite all her high-minded rhetoric, Daenerys comes to Westeros as a conqueror and not a liberator.She made the move to invade when she did not because she heard Cersei was bad and she wanted to help, but because that just happens when she had amassed enough resources to make her move. It's easy to imagine an alternate history, where the War of the Five Kings never happened and Daenerys is siding with the Lannisters to wrest power away from King Robert Baratheon and his hand, Ned Stark. In the end, her alliance with the good guys was always just the luck of the draw, and not any testament to her character.

Daenerys is the same person she's been from the beginning of the show, a woman motivated by a desire for revenge and a thwarted sense of entitlement. This is the woman who thrilled to hear Drogo announce he would "take my Khalasar west to where the world ends" to "rape their women, take their children as slaves and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak."

This is the same woman who swore to the leaders of Qarth that, "when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! "

Daenerys being motivated by a violent desire for vengeance for perceived wrongs against her and a sense of entitlement to the throne is nothing new. Audiences underestimated her cruelty because she's a pretty young woman who has some genuinely decent impulses at times. Instead of lashing out in a Daenerys-like rage, perhaps it's time to ask why it was so easy to ignore all the signs that pointed to this ending.

So, yeah. No destroying of her character arc at all. We saw this coming.
 
I don't understand why there is a big deal made of the killing of the Tarlys, they were fighting for Cersei & refused to submit after losing.
She had no reason to be aware they were the family of Jon Snows friend and they were dicks to Sam too.
 
I don't understand why there is a big deal made of the killing of the Tarlys, they were fighting for Cersei & refused to submit after losing.
She had no reason to be aware they were the family of Jon Snows friend and they were dicks to Sam too.

They were not killed in the middle of a battle. They were hard cold (hot actually) murdered on spot. Where is the supposed compassion to understand from Daenerys? If she was not inherently cruel with an ego the size of the world, she would have made them prisoners of war and try to convince them to fight for her. Explain what she is there to do. But no, she obviously thinks she is above any explanation. People have to submit to her rule just "because". And if they resist, they are burned. Do you get it now? I mean, even her advisors tried to change her mind, but she did it anyway.

Even the majority of the Kingdoms of Westeros are not THAT cruel. Otherwise, Jamie Lanister would have been dead long ago, for example.
 
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They were not killed in the middle of a battle. They were hard cold (hot actually) murdered on spot. Where is the supposed compassion to understand from Daenerys?
They fought a losing battle & remained defiant.

To take over a Feudal system like Westeros requires either completely deposing/killing the existing Lords & appointing new loyal Lords or convincing the existing ones to side with her one way or the other.
Leaders of a fairly powerful house like the Tarlys couldn't be allowed to stay around in defiance especially after being thoroughly defeated in battle.
Immediately after killing them she gained the submission of the rest of the defiant soldiers & there probably should have been some later context given about x number of houses in y areas having come over to the cause after that victory. (maybe there was?)

Jaime was going to be dead.
Rickard Karstark demanded he be executed, Robb was showing every inclination to do it & Catelyn was going to do it herself.
The only thing that was holding them back was that they wanted to use him as collateral for the Stark kids thought to be captive at Kings Landing.
The poorer Bolton troops wanted to trade him for money, Roose wanted to ensure he wouldn't be persecuted by the Lannisters.
The Tarlys had nothing to offer Dany other than their loyalty & they refused that -> could only expect to be executed.


Anyway, in non-GoT related TV:
I'm watching The Tripods, I did re-watch it fairly recently but sort of wasn't paying much attention.
Its kind of a 'what if War of the Worlds resulted in the Martians taking over + several decades/centuries' (not sure how long its supposed to have been).
'80s TV level special effects but I actually think they're reasonably well done, Tripods still feel pretty imposing IMO.
From recollection story gets a bit lost near the end & a real downer ending. (which isn't a bad thing in terms of writing)

Also:
First 2 episodes of Chernobyl which obviously is a TV retelling of the eponymous nuke reactor meltdown.
In a severely russophobic Western world I'd expected a very politicised anti-Russia take on it but actually seems to be a well executed, balanced & sober representation of the facts as I understand them.

Certainly has bits with the local Management & Party members -> senior Party & Media initially reporting 'nothing to see here, small incident, all under control' but that is the truth (edit: as in thats what they did) & it makes clear that they were acting on faulty initial info.
It highlights brave (& in several cases probably radiation fatal) efforts made by multiple people to make sure that the serious reality got up the line relatively quickly & that the Party got immediately into action doing what had to be done once it became clear that shit was serious. (30hrs big bada-boom to helicopters dropping boron/sand)

Even if the intent was to make Russians look bad, to me it highlights that the Soviets actually reacted much quicker & more decisively than Japan/The West to the Fukushima incident.
where despite the lessons of Chernobyl the media reports & coverage of Fukushima similarly basically said 'nothing to see here, everythings fine, minor incident' based off similarly faulty initial measurements taken from detectors that were actually pegged at max & only many years later were admitted to be literally multiple orders of magnitude too small.
Only years later it became officially acknowledged that plant management, TEPCO & Govt Cabinet were well aware that 3 full-core meltdowns were in progress even before the first explosion, that at least one of the explosions was exactly the type of molten-core falling into water -> flash steam explosion sending a significant % of the core into the atmosphere that was the Chernobyl worst-case averted at great sacrifice (which is going to be the subject of Episode 3).
eg Radiation exposure/impact sections in Wiki still in 2019 uses a bunch of data based off a very minor 400miliSieverts/hr Core peak which was a very early reported number (measured from maxed out instruments in the control room or plant perimeter hundreds of meters away) despite the true Core value of just one of the 3 cores actually being found to be at least 200Sievert/hr 6 years later after many years of effort just to get a specially built extremely radiation hardened robot into the Core to get a measurement of the scale of the issue. (and it still died way sooner than expected -> maybe as high as 650Sievert/hr)
 
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The Tarlys had nothing to offer Dany other than their loyalty & they refused that -> could only expect to be executed.

She had literally just arrived in Westeros. She had no idea if they could represent leverage or not. That tells you she is reckless and goes with flow of the moment. She does exactly what she feels like doing, consequences be damned. Just like she did in Kings Landing. In other words, she's a loose cannon, hence you should not expect a lot of consideration for innocents.

I would also like to remind you that Ned Stark was supposed to live and take the black. The oh so bad and evil Cersei (who actually has more brains and discernment than Daenerys ever had) didn't want to kill him. Unfortunately Joffrey messed it all up. Again, compare that with Daenerys killing House Leaders without giving it any second though.

It's incredible the lengths that people go to defend Daenerys. She can do no wrong. Interesting parallel with Trumpeters there.
 
where despite the lessons of Chernobyl the media reports & coverage of Fukushima similarly basically said 'nothing to see here, everythings fine, minor incident' based off similarly faulty initial measurements taken from detectors that were actually pegged at max & only many years later were admitted to be literally multiple orders of magnitude too small.
Only years later it became officially acknowledged that plant management, TEPCO & Govt Cabinet were well aware that 3 full-core meltdowns were in progress even before the first explosion, that at least one of the explosions was exactly the type of molten-core falling into water -> flash steam explosion sending a significant % of the core into the atmosphere that was the Chernobyl worst-case averted at great sacrifice (which is going to be the subject of Episode 3).
eg Radiation exposure/impact sections in Wiki still in 2019 uses a bunch of data based off a very minor 400miliSieverts/hr Core peak which was a very early reported number (measured from maxed out instruments in the control room or plant perimeter hundreds of meters away) despite the true Core value of just one of the 3 cores actually being found to be at least 200Sievert/hr 6 years later after many years of effort just to get a specially built extremely radiation hardened robot into the Core to get a measurement of the scale of the issue. (and it still died way sooner than expected -> maybe as high as 650Sievert/hr)

That is Japan in a nutshell. Everybody pointing fingers at everyone and nobody taking any responsibility. Ever. Not to mention all the crooked things that supposedly went on with the safety inspections.

Anyway looking forward to watch Chernobyl.

I'm currently watching true detective season 3. Watched the first 5 episodes and it is really good. The second season was obviously rather poor but I'd say season 3 is probably better than the first season. Definitely recommend watching.
 
It's incredible the lengths that people go to defend Daenerys.
WTH I'm one of the ppl who is agreeing it was in her character.
I just didn't expect them to go there & I don't see the killing of the Tarlys as some big deal.
It wasn't just murder for the sake of it, its in context of them being 2nd tier feudal Lords staying defiant after badly losing a battle to someone attempting a full takeover of the 7 Kingdoms.
Its making an example to all the other minor Lords: There be Dragons so come over to my side ASAP if you want to retain your Lordship.

Taking The Black was offered & rejected by Tarly, effort was made including by the elder Tarly to convince the younger to submit but he refused even knowing the penalty would be death.
 
Please don't, it's been fun reading everyone calling each other a wanker.

I never!! :)

I (and others) explained very clearly why the writing wasn’t great, while being called several questionable things, among which being unable to pay attention, being too “emotionally attached”, and who knows what else *shrug*
 
Here's what I hope happens (happy endings are boring)
everyone turns on Dany, but she has the flying circus and she kills everyone and then she is queen sitting atop a throne of skulls
(is this a spoiler even?)
 
Maybe Sansa and her husband Tryion end up being the Queen and King of the 7 Kingdoms. At first that was sort of my joke response, but they seem the most level headed and reasonable rulers left who might actually care about the people.

Instead, it'll probably end with everyone dieing and no Queen or King left for the 7 Kingdoms.

Maybe it'll be revealed that all of this is just Medieval-World, yet another "park" in the WestWorld Universe, and everyone we've been watching is an NPC stuck in this story loop.
 
Well if there isn't a ceremony at the end like in the last of the original Star Wars trilogy where everyone gets a medal as whoever is made king present them with it and then sits on the Iron Throne as everyone claps and rejoiceful music sounds.

That's pretty much what everyone is expecting, right? :|
 
The suspense is building. Going to have some tasty Shrimp Fajita for dinner, then watch last weeks GoT episode leading into the finale. I hope its not anticlimactic and will still have some surprises left to share.
 
I call

Daenerys builds a new throne made out the bones of her victims, with Jon Snow's and Cersei's skulls adoring the armrests.
 
Maybe ...

Arya kills Danni, wears her skin face, concedes the throne to Jon, and serves up drink to the unsullied ala House of Freys.
Bran wargs into Danni, concedes the throne to Jon, orders Dragon to eat her.
Bran wargs into Dragon to kill Danni.
Tyrion serves up some celebratory food and drink to Danni ala The Purple Wedding.
 
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