Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [pre E3 2019]

[Mihailjones]

I think 12 or max 16 giga of fast RAM (HMB2 or gddr6) then 64 giga of slow RAM for mass storage buffering and maybe part of the OS.... I know double ram controller is needed... The thing is too much fast memory could create problems with limited bandwidth in the sense is not properly utilized so money wasted.. Sony's GPU don't believe is beyond 10 TF... Yes probably 128 giga SSD is too little... So 256 giga.

This sounds too far fetched fantasy.

Why waste money for some stupid amount of 64gb of slow ram, instead of fast large ssd that is probably even cheaper and have more use.

Even 512gb ssd would be a joke.

All gamers i know have 5-20 games installed all the time. I have total of 2Tb and still always full.

How about recording gameplay with your 256gb ssd? I have about 250gb of videos and some have even more

 

[Panino Manino]

X-box (the one that people care about)
CPU: Zen 2, probably indentical to the PS5 although I have read it won't have SMT enabled. As there are benchmarks out there confirming the 8 core Zen's perform better with it disabled in gaming this is probably a good thing in a console anyway.

Isn't because of two threads trying to use the limited FPU/AVX capabilities at the same time?
Zen 2 improved FPU wouldn't fix this?

 

[HBRU]

Why ? Because of what Cerny said about loading times... Only trough some sort of big mass storage RAM buffer it's possible IMHO

I coped that with (1) cartridges so you have all the games quickly available (2) another version of ps5 more expensive that has both blue ray player (mostly for ps4 games) & 1 tera ssd....

By the way I think it's a smart move from Sony to sacrifice maybe other things and have such RAM buffer... Something you don't have even in expensive PC.... That in my view is not a simple buffer actually as it keeps stored games sessions also while the console is idle... So you wake up all in few seconds.... Really smart.

Something similar (but not the same) is already in ps4 (half giga DDR) and ps4-pro (one giga DDR)...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How much does 64 GBs RAM cost? How do you mitigate the loading times of loading the game into it in the first place?

 

[BRiT]

Why ? Because of what Cerny said about loading times... Only trough some sort of big mass storage buffer it's possible IMHO

No. Have a look at the only technical numbers posted about Cerny's fast travel demonstration and you will see its very possible using PCIe 3 NVME or PCIe4 NVME drives without big mass storage buffers. They are easily capable of reading 3.4 GB/s and the interface can do 7.8 GB/s in a simple 4 lane setup. Pair that with some decompression engines and there you have it.

If you're talking about games needing larger buffers because their developers have not implemented a proper streaming system, that's an entirely different story and has no negative impact on what is possible through PCIe3 NVME or PCIe4 NVME drives.

Here are the technical numbers:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2066067/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2066059/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2066040/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2066111/

 

[MrFox]

How much does 64 GBs RAM cost? How do you mitigate the loading times of loading the game into it in the first place?

About $200 for ddr3.
With a battery backup?

They do have a problem with game rotation, either with ram, or flash, or xpoint, unless the entire storage is an ultra fast SSD. But then the main storage would be too small no matter what because of the budget constraints.

Maybe the solution is a smallish main storage. Then upgrading with additional usb3 or internal sata3 which would copy relatively fast compared to any reinstallation method. The user's choice of storage would simply impact how long it takes for restarting playing an old game which was rotated out. Having 5 or 6 AAA games in main storage should be enough for swaping rarely. Depending on gaming habits.

On one hand I don't want them to limit the custom device speed for the sake of expandability (the speed cap would need to match the minimum speed requirement for expansion if it's used directly instead of copying), on the other hand I really want expandability because 1TB will be anemic.

 

[BRiT]

On one hand I don't want them to limit the custom device speed for the sake of expandability (the speed cap would need to match the minimum speed requirement for expansion if it's used directly instead of copying), on the other hand I really want expandability because 1TB will be anemic.

Especially when BC means I'm starting off with existing 6TB of current-gen games. I have a 4TB HDD and then a 2TB SSD that I use for the current-rotation games for faster access and loads. That's without counting any 2019 and 2020 additions. It's also without the next-gen launch games that'll likely take up even more room. I definitely don't want the sort of experience Sony used in the past for storage upgrades before you can play your games; I remember everyone complaining about having to wait for hours upon hours before they could play.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

About $200 for ddr3.

That totally precludes the idea then. Not even worth discussing.

 

[Deleted member 91098]

How much does 64 GBs RAM cost? How do you mitigate the loading times of loading the game into it in the first place?

The spot price for 8 GB (8 * 1GB) DDR4 2400 is ~3.781 dollar according to dramexchange: https://www.dramexchange.com/ so ~30 dollar for 64 GB. Considering that Sony would buy billions such DRAM chips over the lifetime (at least 50 million consoles sold times 64) the price woul probably go down a bit.

That would be 64 chips on the PCB though (would SO-DIMM save space?). So I think price would be less of an issue then PCB size requirements. 2 GB chips would half that and seem feasible price wise but the coming 4 GB chips will probably all go into server memory sticks.

 

[function]

The spot price for 8 GB (8 * 1GB) DDR4 2400 is ~3.781 dollar according to dramexchange: https://www.dramexchange.com/ so ~30 dollar for 64 GB. Considering that Sony would buy billions such DRAM chips over the lifetime (at least 50 million consoles sold times 64) the price woul probably go down a bit.

I think that's actually 3.781 per 1 GB (8 Gbits).

However nice a huge chunk of ram would be, it's just not affordable.

 

[Vega86]

Since DDR4 RAM have come way down in pricing, Would it be viable as the the main RAM of the next gen APUs in Quad Channel configuration?

Going from Single Channel to Dual Channel for Integrated Graphics almost doubles the framerate. How much is the performance improvement coming from Dual Channel to Quad Channel for Integrated Graphics?

From what I've read, Zen loves fast RAM as well.

 

[AlNom]

Since DDR4 RAM have come way down in pricing, Would it be viable as the the main RAM of the next gen APUs in Quad Channel configuration?

CPU RAM channels are 64-bit each, so 4chan is equivalent to a 256-bit bus, which current gen already sports. The DDR4 RAM bandwidth would be around 1/3rd* compared to GDDR6, so it's not particularly enticing for performance.

*DDR4-4266 vs GDDR6 >12GT/s

Going from Single Channel to Dual Channel for Integrated Graphics almost doubles the framerate. How much is the performance improvement coming from Dual Channel to Quad Channel for Integrated Graphics?

Desktop APUs are already heavily bandwidth constrained while we know there are certain bus contention issues that are difficult to get around. I can't remember exactly, but Intel Crystalwell probably doesn't see as much benefit because they built the 128MB eDRAM L4 to solve the issue of going with a wider external bus, although on the other hand, the L4 chip is already expensive in itself.

Durango sits in between where it has a 256-bit bus to DDR3 while the design spends a significant chunk of die area for the 32MB GPU scratchpad (it's not part of the cache hierarchy unlike Crystalwell) just so that the ROPs can be fed properly, but that means a bunch of figure skating tricks by game devs** just to get the right buffers in and out when the renderer has high bandwidth moments during a frame.

**or a few Hobbit's Tales worth of There and Back Again, if that's a more pleasant image.

From what I've read, Zen loves fast RAM as well.

Would have to double check, but IIRC, it's more sensitive to latency, so higher grade DDR4 coincides with that generally.

 

[Deleted member 91098]

I think that's actually 3.781 per 1 GB (8 Gbits).

However nice a huge chunk of ram would be, it's just not affordable.

Good catch, you're probably right and it makes sense looking at the DDR3 price. Weird that they list Gb or GB for everything but forgot the small b for the two DDR4 listings and list it only as "DDR4 8G (1G*8) 2133/2400 Mbps".

 

[HBRU]

If its now 200 it will probably go to 100 or less in no much time as fabs switch to new processes... This blaze loading feature is really good.... if that can accomplished by really fast SSD drives on the new PCIie4 then ok. But how much do they cost ?!? Well I did not think this RAM is going be powered by battery.... just on idle is going powered as it alredy happens on ps4 by the way. It's a matter of budget anyway... and forecasted costs. I've the impression slow DDR3 prices made with old processes is going down down ...Can also be the storage is just a big, cheap & slow HD (also HD prices are going down as SSD gain momentum) + this RAM buffering... I know is going to be a dramma as you power off the console... But if you keep it idle it's working really fine. And PLEASE consider it's a feature already present in PS4... So such sort of such RAM structure (maybe extended in capabilities) is going be necessary also for BC....

 

[HBRU]

Then consider this: what is goig to give the taste of "next gen" ? Doubled framerates ? Some almost invisible raytracing ? Or a game like The Witcher that loads sessions in fractions of seconds instead of maybe almost a minute ?!?

 

[Vega86]

CPU RAM channels are 64-bit each, so 4chan is equivalent to a 256-bit bus, which current gen already sports. The DDR4 RAM bandwidth would be around 1/3rd* compared to GDDR6, so it's not particularly enticing for performance.

*DDR4-4266 vs GDDR6 >12GT/s



Desktop APUs are already heavily bandwidth constrained while we know there are certain bus contention issues that are difficult to get around. I can't remember exactly, but Intel Crystalwell probably doesn't see as much benefit because they built the 128MB eDRAM L4 to solve the issue of going with a wider external bus, although on the other hand, the L4 chip is already expensive in itself.

Durango sits in between where it has a 256-bit bus to DDR3 while the design spends a significant chunk of die area for the 32MB GPU scratchpad (it's not part of the cache hierarchy unlike Crystalwell) just so that the ROPs can be fed properly, but that means a bunch of figure skating tricks by game devs** just to get the right buffers in and out when the renderer has high bandwidth moments during a frame.

**or a few Hobbit's Tales worth of There and Back Again, if that's a more pleasant image.


Would have to double check, but IIRC, it's more sensitive to latency, so higher grade DDR4 coincides with that generally.

So basically bandwidth starved and the low latency RAM for the CPU won't be that beneficial? Thanks.

Would it still be possible for AMD to do something like the 192bit bus RTX 2060 so it may not seem as bandwidth starved or is this just bad for Navi-GCN? I'm surprised Nvidia charges for 192-bit bus card for $ 349.

Would it be also reasonable for the next gen APU's GPU to be closer to AMD's "RTX 2060+" (just to have basic RT HW than an RTX 2070 at a $ 499 price point or 192 bit just seem too low?

Then consider this: what is goig to give the taste of "next gen" ? Doubled framerates ? Some almost invisible raytracing ? Or a game like The Witcher that loads sessions in fractions of seconds instead of maybe almost a minute ?!?

 

[Vega86]

Then consider this: what is goig to give the taste of "next gen" ? Doubled framerates ? Some almost invisible raytracing ? Or a game like The Witcher that loads sessions in fractions of seconds instead of maybe almost a minute ?!?

I forgot to add the reply on the last one.

I'm guessing better vr integration, extra controller features that will hopefully raise the standard of limited buttons after 2 generations and more intuitive hidden load screens.

Physics and animation will probably be quite a step up if we really have a much better CPU and RAM size.

 

[HBRU]

I'd like too better physics...

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I believe the "no loading time" is a false thing.

Of course that "no loading time" is a false thing, because no one suggested it and it's practically impossible to achieve.
What the PS5's lead architect did promise on record was much faster loading times, and showed a specific example where the loading time in the new hardware was about 20x shorter.

And as its been explained here, the current technological limit is not on getting cheap SSDs to be >>20x faster than the ~40-100MB/s we find in the current games consoles. We've had those in the PC for years.
The limit is on decompressing and decrypting the data fast enough as to avoid putting a major CPU bottleneck in the storage->RAM transition.




In related news, this week newegg put up the Intel 660p 2TB for sale at $185. That's a QLC drive with a rated 400TB write lifetime (more than enough for a gaming console IMO).
They're making a profit selling these to the consumer, at this price, one year before the launch of PS5. Come mid 2020 we might see these for half the price.

QLC can potentially get really cheap, and large capacities give it a large "capacity lifetime". Pair it with a decent NVMe controller and there's no need for using crippled old mechanical drives.

 

[Rootax]

Writing on QLC is crazy slow when the SLC cache is full....