Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [pre E3 2019]

[Picao84]

Well, you did literally write 'I think PS5 is really built around VR'

With that initial assumption, you then wrote the rest.

I fail to see how, in real world terms, technologies that are useful for VR will translate well for non-VR content.

I believe many technologies created initially for space/war were never thought initially as appropriate for consumers by their creators.

It's not about the destination London-boy, it's the about the journey
Like Cerny himself said, they are aiming for immersion/presence in games. What better way to go about it than think in a VR way?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The reality is that whichever way you look at it, VR is and probably will always be a niche,

That's a very personal assessment and one that Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, Valve, Facebook, AMD, nVidia, Intel and Google don't share.
And neither do I, to be honest.

I fail to see how, in real world terms, technologies that are useful for VR will translate well for non-VR content.

Foveated rendering on 1st and 3rd person fames, ray/wave traced audio, holographic audio.

Next natural progression is object based/wave traced.

IMO next natural progression is holographic audio i. e. Super X-Fi tech to scan outer ear and head shape and apply HRTFs accordingly.
Creative is getting huge bumps on market value just for being the first with a consumer product out there.
Apparently their SX-Fi dongle is selling really well to audiophiles because it provides excellent soundstage to even IEMs.

 

[Jay]

I'm sorry but 3D Audio has more benefits in VR than non-VR. On non-VR you are always looking in the same direction towards the screen, while in VR you are actually moving your body around. While you can definitely play a non-VR game with just regular surround fine, as you are static, but that would not work at all in VR, It would be very confusing.

To be honest, I'm not even sure we are talking about the same "3D Audio". Atmos creates a 3D sound stage, but it does not really take into account where the user is, just what is going on in the picture. With VR tracking you can actually position sound according to the user's height, where his arms/hands are, etc...

You said 3D audio, so if anything your proving my point that the examples you gave wasn't representative of what you was trying to say.

I would need to go back to the article but I don't remember Cerney saying anything other than using RT for 3D audio. Which is very beneficial for non vr use.

 

[Adonisds]

Why do people assume the die size is gonna be the same if they think the PS5 is gonna be more exepensive than the PS4 and this time they could even sell at a loss? Do they assume the extra money will go to memory, better cooling and the SSD?

 

[Picao84]

I agree that VR needs this sort of technology in my original post but I remain skeptical about the broader market adoption of VR. If we see 20% of PS5 owners purchase PSVR I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Well, given that 4.2 Million have PSVR already (5% of PS4 users) and PSVR will be compatible with the PS5, there will certainly be a point in time when that is true

 

[London Geezer]

That's a very personal assessment and one that Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, Valve, Facebook, AMD, nVidia, Intel and Google don't share.
And neither do I, to be honest.

Ok, perhaps you'll be more comfortable with me changing my statement to "The reality is that whichever way you look at it, VR is and probably will be a niche for a very, very long time"? The facts don't really change. Even at a very successful 4 million units sold, PSVR is a tiny niche and I don't see this changing any time soon. I don't think that's a personal statement, it's a fact.

 

[Jay]

IMO next natural progression is holographic audio i. e. Super X-Fi tech to scan outer ear and head shape and apply HRTFs accordingly.
Creative is getting huge bumps on market value just for being the first with a consumer product out there.
Apparently their SX-Fi dongle is selling really well to audiophiles because it provides excellent soundstage to even IEMs.

That's not console side of audio production though.
But know what your saying, in terms of in general to you

 

[Picao84]

You said 3D audio, so if anything your proving my point that the examples you gave wasn't representative of what you was trying to say.

I would need to go back to the article but I don't remember Cerney saying anything other than using RT for 3D audio. Which is very beneficial for non vr use.

I don't understand you. My point is EXACTLY that further development in technologies aimed at VR do have benefits for non VR as well. Hello?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The success is PSVR isn't a subject for this thread.

I know I'm heavily biased on it, but... I think PS5 is really built around VR.

What does 'built around' VR mean? What would you do for a console built around VR that you may not do for a normal console?

 

[Jay]

I don't understand you. My point is EXACTLY that further development in technologies aimed at VR do have benefits for non VR as well. Hello?

If you watch/read gdc presentations on audio for quantum break and gears 4 from couple years ago you will see that RT audio was and is a benefit to non vr. (believe those are 2 examples)
Its about the chicken and the egg.
My point is that it was always going to be a goal even without vr, it's just that vr gets benefit from it. Good bye?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Naughty Dog must know Sony's plans and hardware. It could as well be that the guy was told to post a retraction because Sony aren't ready to talk about the hardware beyond what's been said. It's not really proof nor disproof, but I'm inclined to believe that the initial response had more insight than just the Wired article one-liner.

I don't know who this guy is, or if he'd know about ps5. Very possible there's a select group that knows the details to prevent leaks.

 

[iroboto]

Why do people assume the die size is gonna be the same if they think the PS5 is gonna be more exepensive than the PS4 and this time they could even sell at a loss? Do they assume the extra money will go to memory, better cooling and the SSD?

without information it's hard to tell how large the die size will be. But ~350mm2 is reasonable size for a console at 7nm. How much you can pack in there, and if you decide to use some of it for hardware ray tracing, but say, no tensor cores, then yea you could probably get away with something pretty decent.

 

[Picao84]

The success is PSVR isn't a subject for this thread.
What does 'built around' VR mean? What would you do for a console built around VR that you may not do for a normal console?

Ok, replace with "around immersion/presence" if you want, because those were the words used in the article. I can't say what I would do because I don't develop hardware or APIs.

However, 3D Audio, while a nice to have on non-VR games, is absolutely essential to VR, no way around it.

You also can't really have full sense of presence by simply interacting through pressing buttons on a controller while looking at a flat screen. There you have it, just now, having VR in mind could potentially lead to new, more immersive controllers also usable for non VR, that you would otherwise never consider.

It looks like PS5 is going to be a massive beast of a machine. Compared to the conservative OG PS4 that was deemed very weak compared to mainstream PCs at the time, it's an order of magnitude more powerful. I don't believe Sony is playing this hand just with 8K and more of the same but prettier in mind. IMO, these specs are of a machine that is planned to evolve gaming. Think of it as a combination of consumer and "experimentation" device. At least that's how I read this interview, after having re-read 3 times. You might think it's all marketing, but I believe there is a vision there like this.

 

[iroboto]

Ok, perhaps you'll be more comfortable with me changing my statement to "The reality is that whichever way you look at it, VR is and probably will be a niche for a very, very long time"? The facts don't really change. Even at a very successful 4 million units sold, PSVR is a tiny niche and I don't see this changing any time soon. I don't think that's a personal statement, it's a fact.

There's no way people are going hours on end playing with something strapped to their face.
I have optometrists telling me that cell phone usage has cause massive degradation in eye sight across all demographics and they recommend holding the phone close to arms length away to decrease the chance of myopia. And most will hold it pretty close to their face causing myopia.
So having a cell screen literally inches from your eyes playing hours on end.

There are a lot of problems to solve and I totally agree with you, VR sickness is just the first, which is great that it's being addressed by foveate technologies, but that's hardly enough.

Sweat might be be another to consider, for those of you that have tried VR rooms, and you weren't the first party to arrive at the experience - oh it's funky.
I think as much as I think VR is awesome, hard to see someone playing it 3-4 hrs a night straight for a year and coming out damage free.

 

[Jay]

However, 3D Audio, while a nice to have on non-VR games, is absolutely essential to VR, no way around it.

RT 3D immersive audio is more than just surround sound.
Its about where sounds can be heard from, muffled, clear, bounced of walls through doors or windows etc
It makes a huge difference to the immersion of games.

 

[orangpelupa]

RT 3D immersive audio is more than just surround sound.
Its about where sounds can be heard from, muffled, clear, bounced of walls through doors or windows etc
It makes a huge difference to the immersion of games.

Yep. Most games use pretty basic sounds "physics".

One of the best use of "correct" sound is Hatsune miku vr future live on Psvr (the first song is free on US PSN). The voice of the singer can be pinpointed in 3d space, both from the singer's mouth and from the loudspeaker.

Many games simply use flat audio where it doesn't have Z axis and doesn't care with the environment.

One of the biggest game that do this is Destiny 2. Really annoying when enemy is in another room on another floor. Or behind a door / gate.

 

[orangpelupa]

There's no way people are going hours on end playing with something strapped to their face.
I have optometrists telling me that cell phone usage has cause massive degradation in eye sight across all demographics and they recommend holding the phone close to arms length away to decrease the chance of myopia. And most will hold it pretty close to their face causing myopia.
So having a cell screen literally inches from your eyes playing hours on end.

There are a lot of problems to solve and I totally agree with you, VR sickness is just the first, which is great that it's being addressed by foveate technologies, but that's hardly enough.

Sweat might be be another to consider, for those of you that have tried VR rooms, and you weren't the first party to arrive at the experience - oh it's funky.
I think as much as I think VR is awesome, hard to see someone playing it 3-4 hrs a night straight for a year and coming out damage free.

Dunno how is it with other headsets but PSVR is like holding your phone 1.5-2m away from my eyes.

At least judging from how blurry it is when i play without glasses.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Ok, perhaps you'll be more comfortable with me changing my statement to "The reality is that whichever way you look at it, VR is and probably will be a niche for a very, very long time"?

Except that's not the reality, just your opinion.
Adoption of VR in general is not expected to be linear as headsets get cheaper and new features and tech become available to consumers (e.g. wireless headsets, dual-screen-per-eye implementation for "retina" resolution, eye-tracking, etc.).
It's expected to become exponential, like you saw with e.g. LCD TVs and smartphones.

What does 'built around' VR mean? What would you do for a console built around VR that you may not do for a normal console?

From the top of my head:
Integrating a 60GHz 802.11ad transmitter using a PCIe connection to guarantee a low-latency and high-bandwidth connection to a wireless headset. (Let's face it: why else would a gaming console ever need a 60GHz transmitter?)
Embedding infrared emitters or cameras or TOF sensors into DualShock 5 to make them better suited for detection in the 3D space.
Hardware dedicated to foveated rendering, with direct integration of implementation into the software stack.

There's no way people are going hours on end playing with something strapped to their face.
I have optometrists telling me that cell phone usage has cause massive degradation in eye sight across all demographics and they recommend holding the phone close to arms length away to decrease the chance of myopia. And most will hold it pretty close to their face causing myopia.
So having a cell screen literally inches from your eyes playing hours on end.

That's not how this works.
Myopia is caused by continuous focus to a short range. It isn't dependent on how far the light source is from the eye. On VR you're not focusing on the distance between the screen and the eye, you're focusing on the virtual position of the virtual object.
VR is as likely to cause myopia as you going on a stroll outdoors, unless you keep focusing on close virtual objects.

In fact, transitioning from using monitors to VR/AR headsets is probably going to radically decrease myopia in the workplace. In VR you can create gigantic virtual screens 50 meters away from you.

 

[London Geezer]

Except that's not the reality, just your opinion.
Adoption of VR in general is not expected to be linear as headsets get cheaper and new features and tech become available to consumers (e.g. wireless headsets, dual-screen-per-eye implementation for "retina" resolution, eye-tracking, etc.).
It's expected to become exponential, like you saw with e.g. LCD TVs and smartphones.

It is also an opinion to think that this will happen *shrug*

 

[OCASM]

Well I guess Raytracing might actually proliferate come next gen then with a major player already on board. Assuming you wanna run it with a decent resolution say 1080-1440p from a ~12TF gpu, how in the hell would third party devs and even MS first party dev sprinkle it on a supposed ~6TF Lockhart? I highly doubt they would settle for 720p right off the bat.

The algorithms currently used on RTX games are not the same that are going to be used on consoles. NVIDIA wanted rapid adoption of DXR, that means ease of adoption which means triangle intersections. Triangle intersection is not the most efficient RT algorithm. Ray tracing voxels and SDFs is much faster but that would require heavy retooling of the engines and lots of artist time to make sure everything works correctly. For games where RT is just an addon that's asking too much. For games that are designed with RT in mind it's perfectly fine.

Whatever Crytek is doing in their reflections demo is an example of that. This is another:

https://docs.cryengine.com/display/CEMANUAL/Ray+Traced+Shadows

That was using voxels. This is using SDFs:

https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-us...ingAndShadows/RayTracedDistanceFieldShadowing

TL;DR: RTRT implementations in next-gen games will be much far more performant than current DXR enhanced games.