Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [pre E3 2019]

[Shifty Geezer]

Don't, at the very least there will be special instructions to accelerate/accommodate ray tracing. The fact that the system architect was keen on mentioning the feature

We don't know what the system architect's actual words were; only the Wired reporter mentioning it supports ray-tracing. For all we know, the dialogue went:

Wired: Can you do raytracing on it?
Mark: Yes, you can trace rays using compute on the GPU.
Wired: What does that enable? Better graphics?
Mark: Ray tracing is an oft used method in games for physics, AI and audio. For example, if you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that. It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.

...in the context of a custom navi GPU and a custom ray traced audio unit gives a strong indication of some sort of hardware solution.

You don't need fast ray tracing tracing for 3D audio. We've had 3D audio on PC for generations. You need a good HRTF mix-down and positioned audio.

I think this thread has had enough of console RT doubters at this point.

Don't go there.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Audio revelation is interesting, MS went this route with current generation and many of us said it was a waste of resources because unless you have an expensive speaker set up or resign yourself to using headphones you won't notice the difference.

It'll be interesting to see the implementation. SHAPE bucked the trend because bespoke audio DSPs have not been the norm for a long, long time. PS3 had audio up to its ears and PS4 was a step down in ambition yet there's no evidence it impacted sales. Occasionally we heard London-boy sobbing over his A/V receiver remote at games not having ATMOS support.

 

[anexanhume]

Don't, at the very least there will be special instructions to accelerate/accommodate ray tracing. The fact that the system architect was keen on mentioning the feature in the context of a custom navi GPU and a custom ray traced audio unit gives a strong indication of some sort of hardware solution.

I think this thread has had enough of console RT doubters at this point.

They’ve already been doing this for a while with Radeon Rays. We’re going to have to wait for an arch disclosure.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Audio revelation is interesting, MS went this route with current generation and many of us said it was a waste of resources because unless you have an expensive speaker set up or resign yourself to using headphones you won't notice the difference.

I think that's true here too, perhaps it makes sense if you think VR will take off but I'm somewhat skeptical that advance audio is something much if the public is in a position to take advantage of.

3D audio in headphones is awesome. If Sony released a headset with motion tracking for positioning, I think it'd do extremely well. Yes, it could mean taking your eyes off the screen to listen around, but when focussing on hearing that's not an issue, and it's a real game changer. If you could hear someonr crawling through the grass above you, or a bullet whizzing past your ear, correctly positioned, or hear exactly where a gunshot came from (unless it was using a suppressor), you gain a real tactical advantage at a far cheaper price than a 120 Hz 4K display etc., not to mention vastly better immersion.

I was all for 'holophonic' audio this gen. We got partway there on PS4 through surround headsets, but it's not truly immersive yet. I hope it finally comes through.

 

[Technewsreader]

Strategically I don't understand Sony at all...We'll see who is the most powerful in the end but it also doesn't matter as long the gap isn't too big. Especially exclusives will shine on either system.

Besides that I wonder what the leap will be in geometry,complexity of worlds and A.I, any type of Animations and simulations(like wind), physics

we can need some improvements

 

[DavidGraham]

We don't know what the system architect's actual words were; only the Wired reporter mentioning it supports ray-tracing. For all we know, the dialogue went:

Or, it could be entirely the decision of the architect to reveal that detail, Microsoft did the same thing last year at E3, AMD is also hinting at RT support, all of this suggest a much more nuanced implementation than a simple bolt on software one.

I am not saying it's going to be the same as NVIDIA as in having dedicated units, but it will probably be a new methodology.

And I think that insisting on flying against all those signs is not really productive at this point.

 

[anexanhume]

Anandtech’s take

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1422...stom-amd-chip-with-zen-2-cpu-navi-gpu-ssd-too

 

[Clukos]

SSD is the biggest surprise here, PS5 seems like a well balanced system, probably buying day 1 because of PS4 backcompat.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I expect the navi gpu will implement some form of DXR acceleration in hardware. Just speculation, but considering Microsoft made an API, and have an upcoming console launch that is likely to share the same gpu architecture as PS5, this comment about PS5 supporting ray tracing would suggest hardware support.

 

[anexanhume]

SSD is the biggest surprise here, PS5 seems like a well balanced system, probably buying day 1 because of PS4 backcompat.

Agree. With BC and PSVR support, there’s no buyers remorse for buying PS4 now or buying PS5 day one (and potentially trading your PS4 to do it).

 

[Clukos]

I expect the navi gpu will implement some form of DXR acceleration in hardware. Just speculation, but considering Microsoft made an API, and have an upcoming console launch that is likely to share the same gpu architecture as PS5, this comment about PS5 supporting ray tracing would suggest hardware support.

Wouldn't be so sure about that

But hey, AMD might surprise us.

 

[Ike Turner]

I expect the navi gpu will implement some form of DXR acceleration in hardware. Just speculation, but considering Microsoft made an API, and have an upcoming console launch that is likely to share the same gpu architecture as PS5, this comment about PS5 supporting ray tracing would suggest hardware support.

Microsoft DXR announcement
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/announcing-microsoft-directx-raytracing/

You may have noticed that DXR does not introduce a new GPU engine to go alongside DX12’s existing Graphics and Compute engines. This is intentional – DXR workloads can be run on either of DX12’s existing engines. The primary reason for this is that, fundamentally, DXR is a compute-like workload. It does not require complex state such as output merger blend modes or input assembler vertex layouts. A secondary reason, however, is that representing DXR as a compute-like workload is aligned to what we see as the future of graphics, namely that hardware will be increasingly general-purpose, and eventually most fixed-function units will be replaced by HLSL code. The design of the raytracing pipeline state exemplifies this shift through its name and design in the API. With DX12, the traditional approach would have been to create a new CreateRaytracingPipelineState method. Instead, we decided to go with a much more generic and flexible CreateStateObject method. It is designed to be adaptable so that in addition to Raytracing, it can eventually be used to create Graphics and Compute pipeline states, as well as any future pipeline designs.

"software RT" according to some..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Besides that I wonder what the leap will be in geometry,complexity of worlds and A.I, any type of Animations and simulations(like wind), physics
we can need some improvements

The CPU and SSD are going to bring next-gen world possibilities.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Or, it could be entirely the decision of the architect to reveal that detail

Perhaps, but the lack of stating there was hardware-level acceleration (at least in the article - did the author drop that info much to Cerny's annoyance after he plugged it?) means we cannot know.

And I think that insisting on flying against all those signs is not really productive at this point.

No, jumping to conclusions is not productive at this point. What's to be gained by assuming PS5 has RT hardware? Nothing. What's lost by by not assuming it has? Nothing. So why try to force an acceptance of what you consider Gospel? Plenty of us are happy to wait and see.

 

[RDGoodla]

We don't know what the system architect's actual words were; only the Wired reporter mentioning it supports ray-tracing. For all we know, the dialogue went:

Wired: Can you do raytracing on it?
Mark: Yes, you can trace rays using compute on the GPU.
Wired: What does that enable? Better graphics?
Mark: Ray tracing is an oft used method in games for physics, AI and audio. For example, if you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that. It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.

You don't need fast ray tracing tracing for 3D audio. We've had 3D audio on PC for generations. You need a good HRTF mix-down and positioned audio.

Don't go there.

Are these true dialogues?? I don't see Wired ask these questions in the article.

Or you mean PS5 uses ray tracing for audio, not for graphic?

 

[Nesh]

Are these true dialogues?? I don't see Wired ask these questions in the article.

Or you mean PS5 uses ray tracing for audio, not for graphic?

Both. It has a lot of uses

 

[RDGoodla]

Both. It has a lot of uses

Where do the dialogues come from? The original article
(https://www.wired.com/story/exclusive-sony-next-gen-console/)
doesn't mention these questions.

 

[London Geezer]

It'll be interesting to see the implementation. SHAPE bucked the trend because bespoke audio DSPs have not been the norm for a long, long time. PS3 had audio up to its ears and PS4 was a step down in ambition yet there's no evidence it impacted sales. Occasionally we heard London-boy sobbing over his A/V receiver remote at games not having ATMOS support.

It’s a VITAL feature!! I find it more essential than access to clean water at this point.

 

[Shortbread]

I expect the navi gpu will implement some form of DXR acceleration in hardware. Just speculation, but considering Microsoft made an API, and have an upcoming console launch that is likely to share the same gpu architecture as PS5, this comment about PS5 supporting ray tracing would suggest hardware support.

I believe a more definitive answer will come next month about Navi's RT capabilities.

As the first CEO keynote speaker at the COMPUTEX Press Conference, Dr. Lisa Su said, “As one of the most important global events for our industry, I look forward to COMPUTEX each year. I am honored to deliver the opening keynote this year and provide new details about the next generation of high-performance AMD platforms and products. With our partners, we will tell the story of how leading-edge technologies and an open ecosystem are driving an inflection point in computing and industry innovation and positively impacting several important markets.”

 

[London Geezer]

We don't know what the system architect's actual words were; only the Wired reporter mentioning it supports ray-tracing. For all we know, the dialogue went:

Wired: Can you do raytracing on it?
Mark: Yes, you can trace rays using compute on the GPU.
Wired: What does that enable? Better graphics?
Mark: Ray tracing is an oft used method in games for physics, AI and audio. For example, if you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that. It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.

You don't need fast ray tracing tracing for 3D audio. We've had 3D audio on PC for generations. You need a good HRTF mix-down and positioned audio.

Don't go there.

My opinion? Cerny is as far from a PR guru as you can find. He really is a matter of fact kind of guy, as demonstrated at the PS4 reveal where he simply explained what the system had inside, showed off some rather underwhelming demos (compared to what we actually got from some games) and off he went. As opposed to Sony’s older attitudes, which need no further mention.

I’d be very surprised if Wired explicitly asked him whether PS5 supports RT, and at the same time I don’t think Cerny would have mentioned the feature - and with this much effort trying to explain it - if he thinks he can just get away with, ultimately, it not being used in reality.

It follows that he would expect RT being accelerated somehow in the platform and that devs will be using it in some shape or form.