Sony Playstation Marketing: a quiet place in days gone?

(*fixed)

Let's say with critical success useful enough for marketing purposes to claim critical success?

But yes I expect a couple system sellers every year from sony. Whichever metric can be used to call it a system seller and marketing usefulness of the game's reception.
 
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Haha yay! I made BRiT fall into the list war trap!

No, no list wars, please. I just dont want hyperbole, especially in fickle user rankings. I was pointing out even great games like Sony's Robot Dinosaurs didnt even hit the bullshit cutoff score.

There are many games many love to play for hours without end that don't get the same critical attention.
 
No, no list wars, please. I just dont want hyperbole, especially in fickle user rankings. I was pointing out even great games like Sony's Robot Dinosaurs didnt even hit the bullshit cutoff score.

There are many games many love to play for hours without end that don't get the same critical attention.
I agree! I changed it. But this is about marketing, and there must be some criteria that makes something a system seller.

Fan service games are important to keep gamers on the platform, but they don't grow it. MS have those, but what they are looking for is system sellers to those who don't have that console, which needs some form of mass critical success to make heads turn in their direction. Those new studios don't indicate that yet.
 
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Yes. Games sales drop a lot after a couple of months. But you have to consider that even so, you must give value for the money to the people who paid, Otherwise they will not buy. Even if games stop the huge amount of sales after some months, one should wait at least a year before making the same product available at 1/7 of the price. More if the game had patches due to problems!
I think these are reasonable assumptions we would make as people who purchase games, but I don't think the data collected by the studios/publishers support this argument, thus why I think this gamepass exists in the first place.
If I look at Shadow of the Tomb Raider, or Assassin's Creed Odyssey or a whole slew of other games, short after their release, we see shortly a near 20-30% price reduction. To me, this is their attempt to continue to gather more profits while they can, as the games continue to compete against more and more titles that are being launched.

Most people that I know, have backlogs so massive that it's unlikely they'll ever finish them, and they'll unlikely finish them because everyone is trying to play the newest titles and most aren't going back to older ones except when you've dedicated a service specifically for playing 100 or so odd titles. Then you're likely to try more of them, but perhaps not finish them. Or more people in your household would, or you hit a larger target audience because say your title is marketed towards one group, but put it on game pass and MS markets it, anyone on the subscription service can try it.

If we're being specific very few titles aside from MS exclusives have launched on Game Pass. And MS launching their titles on Game Pass is an advantage that only platform holders can do to attract more people to their platform. Sea of thieves has no micro transactions for instance yet, and they continually release new content. Sony does this with single player adventure titles. Most people in the industry would tell you that those types of games (in general) won't sell enough so that's why they stopped making them. But Sony can, and will continue to, to round our their library and drive audiences to their platform. I would like to almost compare it to, purposely try to make 'Academy Award Winning' movies. They know the very specific formula that will garner them GOTY winners.

But not all Academy Award winners sell the most. But that doesn't matter to them, as long as you buy all your other games on PlayStation. Because they know you'll buy your 3P games there too.

About what you wrote next, I might agree on all of it. But I have questions on all of them. I warn all that read that I´m about to repeat some previous arguments.

Do note that these questions do not exist on a service like PSNow that runs in chain with normal sales, but only for a service like Gamepass that runs in parallel with it
That's fine, as long as you are okay with me not knowing any of the answers for real. I don't work for MS, and Gamepass economics is likely more closely guarded information than their next generation hardware. The best I can do is look at, comparable services like Netflix, recall some tidbits from interviews, and try to draw some inferences.

Yes.. you can! Mouth to mouth works like a charm. But... When you have to chose what game to buy, that works wonders. When you have 100 available, will that really work the same way? And if it works, won't that damage the remaining 99 since you can only dedicate time to one at a time?
MS will promote your titles each month as they come into Game Pass. So that helps. Traditional marketing is also important. A bit similar to how Netflix will move their 'latest releases' to the front. Those types of filters exist on the Gamepass tab.

Is this a good thing??? Delivering content over time? Episodic content?
But lets accept you manage to keep a person locked to your game like that, the previous question arrises. Won't this damage the remaining games?
And if all games start doing this does your risk really decreases?
This point may have advantages to the game maker, but not to the general public. At least I see none!
I think on this topic, it's important not to take a concept and run it to absolutely everything. Game Pass is, at the end of the day, another method in which gamers can consume games, on top of all the other methods that are available to them. In parallel, Game Pass is, just another channel in which developers can generate profits for themselves. It will likely make sense for some titles, and less sense for others.

Eventually yes... Some day! But has anyone ever managed to know how many people would have to subscribe to compensate for the loss of sales?
Horizon Zero Dawn sold 10 million, God of War sold 7 million, Spider man sold 11 million. In here I have 38 million copies sold on a 90 million consoles market.
But how many real persons bought this games? 38 millions?
What if, at least 7 million bought all 3 games?Can anyone answer that?
So I think you answered your own question. MS and Sony both know.
I think if we are really desperate to find out, we could know. You can go through each person's ID and see their achievements/trophies and look to see how much time was spent on each title. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the same people buying TLOU, UC, HZD, GOW are all the same buyers. those games are market to the same target audience. Spider Man is much wider.

But in the original question, I wouldn't take my word for it, but this developer seems reasonable:
https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/
“When we brought Oxenfree to Game Pass it was really interesting because we initially thought it could cannibalize our other sales or what’s that gonna do, and actually it was just the opposite. It was something that lifted sort of all of our sales because we found that we found a lot of new audiences.

We found people who tried the game who wouldn’t have otherwise tried it, they might not have understood the genre… It has really become a super-important part of our ecosystem because it’s just really discoverable.”

Krankel also confirmed that thanks to the experience with Oxenfree, Night School Studio’s next game Afterparty is going to launch on Xbox Game Pass day and date with its traditional release (even if he’s not yet ready to say when that date will be).

We saw a huge number of players for State of Decay 2, and according to Sea of Thieves, in August they had 5 million players playing. Half of those players were game pass.
Which is surprising, because that's a lot of purchasers.

This is a good thing, but is a demo really a big labor?
Yes, and demos don't equate to a direct payout. If a person gets into a game on game pass, they're getting paid and the opportunity for additional content purchase is there.
Demos do require labour, and they don't receive patches and it may not continue where the player left off on the demo.

As I already stated, I doubt these values.
Yea, I have a hard time believing these numbers as well. There are definitely whales out there that could be upping the average, but it's hard to say. If game pass is at 3M subscribers, you're going to need a metric ton of super whales to move the average that high.

Microsoft should care were we play games.
I believe that their idea is to offer more options for gamers and not less.
Something I should remind everyone, it's not like MS doesn't understand the console business. They were arguably one of the first companies to really explode and own the whole 'Walled Garden' type strategy. And that was with Windows. And windows had an insane global penetration rate of the high 90s with no other competition in sight, to the point that the government came in and broke shit up on them (and to this date, only them).

They have a very long experience with the Walled Garden, and over time, they went downhill, and today they've completely abandoned that strategy. Since Satya, It's about your content, your services, on your devices. And they are much more interested in supporting that transaction and any business that want to sit on top of Azure to do that type of transaction. And that is trying to align with the times we are in today. There was probably a time in which the walled garden approach made a lot of sense. But when the technology comes that can threaten your business, you need to take the steps to cannibalize your own products to grow something better. We see this with a lot of tech companies today.

So I'm not saying console gaming is going to be dead. I'm just saying, MS isn't going to be flat footed and wait for another competitor to take their business away. If they're going to cannibalize their business, they're going to do it on their terms in a controlled manner in which the impacts to their business is minimal. I see that is what they are doing right now.
 
The 360/PS3 generation clearly shows this doesn't work all the time. PS2 was Sony's most successful console, that didn't really help for the 'meh' PS3 though. Their E3 marketing wasn't anything to go by either, wasn't that E3 2005/6 with the 'ridge racer incident'?

The 360/PS3 shows this exactly, that what people know when they pick their console is important. A lot of potential early adopters looked at the cost of PS3 and said "no thanks". Once PS3 was out, the cost was still an issue and then it was known that many cross-platform games ran worse than their 360 counterparts. It wasn't until Sony addressed both of these points, which took many years, that PS3 sales turned around.
 
The 360/PS3 shows this exactly, that what people know when they pick their console is important. A lot of potential early adopters looked at the cost of PS3 and said "no thanks". Once PS3 was out, the cost was still an issue and then it was known that many cross-platform games ran worse than their 360 counterparts. It wasn't until Sony addressed both of these points, which took many years, that PS3 sales turned around.
All true but I also think the first party software also helped a lot and the 'free' games with PSN subscription.

Sony created a better value proposition and eventually was able to turn things around not to mention MS focus on Kinect sort of annoyed core gamers who were expecting more support.
 
I agree! I changed it. But this is about marketing, and there must be some criteria that makes something a system seller.
Yes. The metric will be whatever marketeers wave around proudly, so units sold or hours played (I expect that one to be big!) or Metacritic scores. Collections of awards is probably a good one. Sony seem quite good at getting those, and no-one actually considers how those competitions are operated so they can be fairly easy wins if one goes for them.
 
Who said 'bound to'? Why do you guys argue in such crazy absolutes?
It's not a crazy absolute. It's the hypothesis that is being discussed here.
Did several people in this thread not claim that Microsoft's current announcements (whatever they seem to be) are making next-gen Xbox more appealing than next-gen Playstation, and did you not claim yourself that most console gamers will gravitate to the better platform regardless of the brand?
And if this thing isn't moving at least several millions of PS4 owners to Xbox, then the conversation is irrelevant.

Therefore, my question is valid and not a crazy absolute.


So as I say above, MS is vocally offering a 'future-proof' platform, pushing the needle a little more in favour of XB for those who value that which is probably a large part of the market given it's 3rd party titles that are played the most.

Yet the question remains unanswered. How exactly did they push the needle in favour of XB?
What is this great announcement of hardware/software/both that I missed from Microsoft, that pushed the needle because they're offering a more "future-proof" platform?

Was it cloud gaming (which Sony already has AFAIK)? Phil Spencer saying they will be pushing for BC next gen?
Honest question, because watching this thread I feel like either I'm really far out of the loop or people are making really large assumptions based on little and missing information.

To date, the only counter-argument for Sony not saying anything is, "they don't need to."
Wait, is that really the only counter-argument that was presented? That seems odd.
How about:
- The right time for announcing new stuff hasn't come yet because they don't want to Osborne their hardware and software lineup.
If there's a PS5 coming up in March 2020, Sony talking about how it will offer feature XYZ would instantly make them lose millions of PS4 Slim/Pro sales. Of course that's always going to happen because they have to announce it eventually, but they obviously want to minimize that damage.


If Sony's marketing was still strong, we wouldn't be having this conversation!
Who's saying Sony's marketing is weak? What measurable metric are they failing at?
Q1 is always the slowest quarter for announcements because people just came from holiday spending, which is why they only published a streaming session oriented at the VR niche.
Late Q2 is usually when most significant announcements are made. This isn't new.
Why is Sony's marketing team being singled out for acting like most gaming marketing teams have for the past 20 years?
 
What is this great announcement of hardware/software/both that I missed from Microsoft, that pushed the needle because they're offering a more "future-proof" platform?

Was it cloud gaming (which Sony already has AFAIK)? Phil Spencer saying they will be pushing for BC next gen?
Honest question, because watching this thread I feel like either I'm really far out of the loop or people are making really large assumptions based on little and missing information.
For the past couple of years, MS has been moving XBox away from just being a console and more to a service. Play Anywhere allows you to buy a game on XBox and play it on PC, and vice versa. BC means a lot of your favourite titles from previous consoles still play on your new console, and MS's ongoing investment in that shows a very high likelihood that, going forwards, future platforms will be BC also. Their cloud gaming initiative incorporates touch-screen controls and adaptation in the dev tools, meaning future games will naturally transfer to cloud gaming so, if you like that idea, your entire library should be playable, unlike Sony's select offerings. And MS have rolled out XBox Live to mobile devices as a platform-agnostic service, even onto Nintendo Switch, so non-Xbox games can integrate with the ecosystem and, as such, the ecosystem can expand even further.

Sony offers a number of services. MS is offering an integrated philosophy and future. If Sony is planning or trying to match MS, they aren't communicating that at all. Expectations are that PS5 will play PS5 games and there'll be some cloud gaming service of some sort. We don't even know if it'll play the PS4 library.
 
It's not a crazy absolute. It's the hypothesis that is being discussed here.
Did several people in this thread not claim that Microsoft's current announcements (whatever they seem to be) are making next-gen Xbox more appealing than next-gen Playstation, and did you not claim yourself that most console gamers will gravitate to the better platform regardless of the brand?
And if this thing isn't moving at least several millions of PS4 owners to Xbox, then the conversation is irrelevant.

Therefore, my question is valid and not a crazy absolute.
Respectfully, I think the goal is to not make this into a console war thread. And we've hit the fat grey area, but this should be on the context of Sony's marketing. It seems we're often tight rope walking this line between Sony's marketing and people's opinions of where they stand positionally, such that, the position of the two competitors is justification for a lack of marketing; or in some people's opinion, the complete lack of it entirely would make no difference to them.

Yet the question remains unanswered. How exactly did they push the needle in favour of XB?
What is this great announcement of hardware/software/both that I missed from Microsoft, that pushed the needle because they're offering a more "future-proof" platform?

Was it cloud gaming (which Sony already has AFAIK)? Phil Spencer saying they will be pushing for BC next gen?
Honest question, because watching this thread I feel like either I'm really far out of the loop or people are making really large assumptions based on little and missing information.
I'll answer this, though I don't want to as I feel it's OT and will lead to further console warring.

I think @DSoup said it best, it's not that MS has been making huge announcements for next Xbox, they have been making a lot of announcements for this generation.
1) Game Pass: It's 100 games, of a large mixture of indie, AA, AAA, and all MS exclusives launch on Game Pass. With the number of studios that MS has, we're looking at a large number of exclusive games for at worst, the price of 3 AAA titles per year - not including all the previous exclusives from the past and not including any other AAA title.
Even if you didn't love MS titles, you're still getting an insane value proposition for your money even more so if you have multiple players in your house hold each with different tastes.
We already know that Game Pass will continue to improve over time, not get worse, as the catalog grows and today Sony has no response to this. And despite the fact that many of you may not agree with the catalog of games, I think you can all empathize with the money value/savings component of Game Pass.

2) VRR, HDMI 2.1, 120Hz Refresh, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos
All supported today, meaning we can expect all these (since no OS change) to go into next Xbox. Meaning if you wanted that TV today with all those features, you can get one today knowing that the ecosystem will support all these features already. That's pretty important aspect imo that is often overlooked. The reason why this would be important to you is because maybe that deal is now, perhaps you want these features today. PS4 don't support these features today, and you're still unsure if they will (or which, or all) support them next-gen.

3) 3 Generations of BC
From OG Xbox, to Xbox One, the hardest part of BC has been completed and they have mentioned many times that part of the BC process was to ensure that all the current generation titles were having their deals with MS re-signed with BC in mind so that they don't have to go through licensing problems in the future. Once again, not supported by PS4 today, and you're still left to complete unknown if going to be on PS5.

4) Streaming
With reasonable probability (waiting for additional clarification), it will be your game library that can stream to any device you desire. That's a big difference from PS Now at the moment.

5) Play Anywhere / Cross Play with NSW and PC support / Steam Probabilities
You get to play more of those 3P titles in more ways than previously. This will affect your 3P purchasing decisions if you're into multiplayer. Or you have multiplayer in your own household.

6) The studio purchases to bolster their 1P lineup.
Their biggest weakness is their 1P catalog, and they have announced significant investment to bolster that area of weakness.

And to wrap this up, they get to continue to hammer this type of messaging at E3 2019 this year when the signal is clear and not full of noise from their main competitor.
Wait, is that really the only counter-argument that was presented? That seems odd.
How about:
- The right time for announcing new stuff hasn't come yet because they don't want to Osborne their hardware and software lineup.
If there's a PS5 coming up in March 2020, Sony talking about how it will offer feature XYZ would instantly make them lose millions of PS4 Slim/Pro sales. Of course that's always going to happen because they have to announce it eventually, but they obviously want to minimize that damage.
I guess this is an interesting point, I'm actually left to ask 'what' those features would be. MS has deployed features that Xbox cannot take advantage of but they are supported today. I even suspect they will announce DXR soon on Xbox One even if we don't see much possibility XBO support for RT titles.
What could Sony announce that has to wait for next gen, that couldn't be announced today at least from a platform perspective.
From a game perspective, I get this point.

Who's saying Sony's marketing is weak? What measurable metric are they failing at?
Q1 is always the slowest quarter for announcements because people just came from holiday spending, which is why they only published a streaming session oriented at the VR niche.
Late Q2 is usually when most significant announcements are made. This isn't new.
Why is Sony's marketing team being singled out for acting like most gaming marketing teams have for the past 20 years?
I think from last set of official communications:
State of Play which just happened
E3 2018 was a remaster of E32017 + PSX 2017
There was no PSX 2018
There is no E3 2019

So that really leaves a large gulf for the last time they've been officially communicated something.

tldr; to be clear, no one is saying because MS has communicated all of these things that they won next gen or some gibberish. No. That's not what this thread has ever been about.

it's about Sony's fans, and empathizing with their feelings of the situation, even if you don't agree with their stance. Like many of you have already stated, you'll stick with PS forever because of games, but that doesn't mean you can't empathize with their feelings of not getting those platform/service/console feature announcements, and to some degree game announcements, since 2017 PSX. It's a been a long time. And even though many of you are un-phased about it; which is fine; I think dismissal of his opinion just because Sony will win next generation (with reasonable probability), is not necessarily the point of this thread.

I mean lets be real here; it's unlikely that MS can do anything to cause Sony to fall from the pole position. Only Sony could cause Sony to fall from the pole position. And that's their concern.
 
I think these are reasonable assumptions we would make as people who purchase games, but I don't think the data collected by the studios/publishers support this argument, thus why I think this gamepass exists in the first place.
If I look at Shadow of the Tomb Raider, or Assassin's Creed Odyssey or a whole slew of other games, short after their release, we see shortly a near 20-30% price reduction.

I understand what you are saying. But I would not call this Good Business. I would call this greed!
I will give you an example:
Here in Portugal people know that after christmas stores make great promotions to get rid of remaining stocks. And more and more people are avoiding to buy stuff before christmas, getting it after, for a lot less money.
If companies who do not sell do not respect some time to give value for money to those who payed full price, more and more people will not buy full price. And the end result will become counter productive.
If you told me this was beeing done by the corner store, I would just say that they have no notion of reality and were greedy, and that their future would be compromised.
Coming from big corporations, I just don´t know what to think. They should have people with the know how that warn them against these kind of moves...
But ok, this was just a side note. Because I cannot find that reducing price so soon is the best way to increasse profits. It might be the best way to reduce losses, but not to increase profits. I personally look at those recent promotion as a sign that the game is not very good, and it is not selling well.

Most people that I know, have backlogs so massive that it's unlikely they'll ever finish them, and they'll unlikely finish them because everyone is trying to play the newest titles and most aren't going back to older ones except when you've dedicated a service specifically for playing 100 or so odd titles. Then you're likely to try more of them, but perhaps not finish them

True... But there are games and games. Some are just mindless games made for imediate fun, like Fortnite. But others are way more complex, and the game is not just for fun, but a way to tell a story. For instance, I look at Fortnite and God of War as completly diferent things. Two completly diferent experiences! One is the experience offered by a Multiplayer game, the other the experience of a single player game.
Not finishing a game like God of War after you start it, is loosing on the story it is trying to tell you.
So, having that line of thought, seems to be also a bet on multi, because that's the kind of game you can skip on the story, the kind of game, you can stop playing not loosing anything.
And that's an indirect way of telling people that single player games are not a bet.
Personally that's my favorite kind of games. The kind of games I want to preserve.

Sea of thieves has no micro transactions for instance yet, and they continually release new content. Sony does this with single player adventure titles. Most people in the industry would tell you that those types of games (in general) won't sell enough so that's why they stopped making them. But Sony can, and will continue to, to round our their library and drive audiences to their platform. I would like to almost compare it to, purposely try to make 'Academy Award Winning' movies. They know the very specific formula that will garner them GOTY winners.

I'm a bit lost... I do not remember any Sony released games that were incomplete or lacking content. I do remember some games that got extra content, but none that was criticized for having no content in the original release like Sea of Thieves.
Besides, the story about single player games not selling is something I already debated with several persons, and I look at it like a fallacy.
You can tell me Multi player is cheap to produce, you can tell me multi player has a diferent appeal, you can tell me multi player is easier to explore with micro transactions. But no one can tell me single player do not sell.

In February 2018 I made some reasearch and wrote an article about that subject. I went to Vgchartz and took a list of all the games that sold over 1 million copiesm using this as a sample of the most representative games in the market.

I assumed the following to separate those games into single player, and multi player:
- All multi player games are online, but not all online games are multi. Examples: Battlefied 4 is a online multi player game. Street Fighter is a co-op game, played online for extra features.
- Multi player games are those that have the multi player part as it´s main component : Examples: Halo 5 I condererd multi player because its multi player part is more relevant than the single player for the majority of players, Uncharted 4 has multi, but I considered it a single player game because the online is a mere extra.
- Games know to be good single player games, that have bigger or at least great or sucess on its online part, were considerer multi player. GTA as an example.
- In case of doubt, the game was to be considered multi player (So, I benefited multi over single)

I found 118 games with over 1 million copies sold in PS4, and 63 on Xbox One. And proceded to separate them as multi and single players going by the above criteria.
The results were diferent on both consoles:

PS4 had 75 single player games on the 118 with more than 1 million copies sold. 63% of the games that sold over 1 million were single player.
Xbox had 35. In Xbox, 55% of the games that sold over 1 million were single player.

Single player was the most wanted format... But what about copies sold?

What I found was what I stated above. Multi have more imediate atracction and sell more copies. Single Player Games sell less copies.

Even so, the sales on PS4 were the following:
181.88 milion sales were on Multi Player games.
182,4 million sales were on Single Player games.

The market was 50-50 on sales. So, Single Player games do sell.

On Xbox it was a bit different.
109 million sales were on multi player games.
44.7 million were on single player games.

Xbox had way more sales on multi. Something I found normal, due to the bet Microsoft is doing on multi player.

I then added both sales: I got 291.4 million sales on multi, and 226.97 million sales on single. The unbalance was 6.18% on the multi player side.

My final conclusions were that the market was ballanced, and if there is a dominant format it would be single player. Why? Because the remaining games on the Vgchartz list that I did not took into account were almost all single player. And if I added Switch, Vita and 3DS Games, they would mostly fall in the single player category.

So, Single Player does sell... Companies dont want to produce them for other reasons, or just do not produce quality games, and then, due to the lower risk of multi, they claim that they do not sell. But that just seems to be dirt in your eyes.

Create good Single Player games and they sell... And Sony and Nintendo are the best example of that!

That's fine, as long as you are okay with me not knowing any of the answers for real. I don't work for MS, and Gamepass economics is likely more closely guarded information than their next generation hardware. The best I can do is look at, comparable services like Netflix, recall some tidbits from interviews, and try to draw some inferences.

That's ok, we are just talking... But do not compare the uncomparable.

Netflix has no competition and is almos a monopoly. Microsoft will have plenty of competition, and hardly any monopoly in the near future!
Netflix infrastructure is just HDD. Microsoft requires HDD, RAM, CPU and GPU.
Netflix exclusive content is mostly episodic content, and that atracts people. Microsoft can be too, but will that atract people?
Netflix costs 11.99 euros. Gamepass costs 10 euros.
You can see a movie everywhere, stop it anytime. You may be able to play a game anywhere, but with different control schemes and results. You cannot pause it anytime.
You release a series episode each week. Added content for games takes several months to create and is not releases weekly.

MS will promote your titles each month as they come into Game Pass.

That's great. But the promotion will reach other games too. It will not be directed to any game in particular, but to the service. So will it be effective for anyone in particular? It´s not exactly the same thing, is it?
 
Game Pass is, at the end of the day, another method in which gamers can consume games, on top of all the other methods that are available to them. In parallel, Game Pass is, just another channel in which developers can generate profits for themselves.

I agree. Never though of it any other way, untill they started competing with themselfs by releasing exclusives on day one. That was when all my questions appeared.

So I think you answered your own question. MS and Sony both know.
I think if we are really desperate to find out, we could know. You can go through each person's ID and see their achievements/trophies and look to see how much time was spent on each title. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the same people buying TLOU, UC, HZD, GOW are all the same buyers. those games are market to the same target audience. Spider Man is much wider.

Agreed on the second part.
But I did not answer my own question. I recognize that "eventually" a subscription market can become so large that it is profitable, and that is even generates more profit than the current one. But I do not know what size does that market needs to reach for that.
The existence of subscription services that make games available on day one canibalize sales. That's a given! Now, when will they start to be a plus instead of a minus, I do not know... And I doubt anyone does! There are to many variables, and the fact that there will be fierce compatition on that market does not help.

So I think companies will enter that market just because others are doing it, and they must act, more than because they were really willing to do it.
Ubisoft,for instance, once claimed it had serious doubts that a subscription model could sustain their current model. The doubts they have are the same that haunt everyone's mind.

But in the original question, I wouldn't take my word for it, but this developer seems reasonable:
https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/

I cannot deny facts... But I can ask myself if this is not the exception that confirms the rule. Because this is not something I am hearing from others.

...according to Sea of Thieves, in August they had 5 million players playing. Half of those players were game pass.
Which is surprising, because that's a lot of purchasers

Those numbers are factual. As are the ones that state that the game, and Gamepass lost half of their users after a month. The end of the Gamepass Trial.

https://www.inquisitr.com/4879378/s...en-the-xbox-game-pass-free-trial-expired/amp/

So...was gamepass availabity good for sales or not? I don´t think so.

Yea, I have a hard time believing these numbers as well. There are definitely whales out there that could be upping the average, but it's hard to say. If game pass is at 3M subscribers, you're going to need a metric ton of super whales to move the average that high.

Why??? I have over 40 PS4 games... Attach ratio on PS4 is 9.4. I´m not a big spender and have 4x the attach ratio! If the bigger whales are the first ones to subscribe I don´t have a problem at all in believing the number.

But when the technology comes that can threaten your business, you need to take the steps to cannibalize your own products to grow something better.

Or not... Microsoft is know for entering markets with the intent to dominate, and then leaving then when they fail.

So I'm not saying console gaming is going to be dead

The simple fact that the death of console gaming is mentioned is what worries me. If companies are taking steps that can threaten Gaming, then all of us that care about gaming should be very worried about that.
 
The simple fact that the death of console gaming is mentioned is what worries me. If companies are taking steps that can threaten Gaming, then all of us that care about gaming should be very worried about that.
I think there is some FUD flying around about this. The only area of marketing where console is being hinted as being replaced by gaas only, is where the companies involved need the console to die to become dominant in the gaas market. Google, MS, and Amazon.

I see no such push from either sony or nintendo. I see no such fear from consumers on these platforms either.
 
As long as consumers buy and play non-GaaS titles, non-GaaS titles will continue. Companies cannot make markets - they can only offer options that consumers will choose. If, in the end, GaaS is what everyone ends up playing, that's because it's what everyone wants to play, and we'll be too busy playing some GaaS title (Apex, Uncharted World, Mario Universe, etc.) to care to complain. ;)

For all the complaints of MT riddled mobile games, these only exist because that's what the market elected for with its dollars. Games were originally sold and people wouldn't buy them. Those same people would however happily download a free title and give over stupid amounts of money for 'in game consumables'. No-one made them do; they chose to, because, bizarrely, that's what they prefer.

Robust sales of single-player titles etc. shows GaaS is not a problem for PC and console gaming for any time soon.
 
For the past couple of years, MS has been moving XBox away from just being a console and more to a service.
Yeah.. that definitely did not go well back in 2013.
Is there any proof that this move is making the Xbox division more profitable or significantly more popular?
It's a given that game publishers are convinced that if they're successful at transitioning from selling games as products to games as services they will make more money. It's not a given that these attempts are popular among console/PC gamers, nor that they've actually been successful outside smartphone games, MMOs and MOBAs.


Play Anywhere allows you to buy a game on XBox and play it on PC, and vice versa.
It does, but it's obvious very few 3rd party publishers like that idea. After glancing at the list of titles the only high-profile 3rd-party offers I saw were Resident Evil 7 and Shadow of Mordor, both of them being over 2 years old.
I still reckon this is great for 1st party titles, but the PC crowd is showing an immense resistance to using anything other than Steam as we're seeing with all the fightback against the Epic Games Store.


BC means a lot of your favourite titles from previous consoles still play on your new console, and MS's ongoing investment in that shows a very high likelihood that, going forwards, future platforms will be BC also.
BC is nice and Sony knows it. Which is why the PS4 was the first playstation (other than PS1 of course) to release without BC at launch.
And despite Sony reps' attempts at providing simple explanations to a broad audience, we know why the PS4 doesn't emulate the PS3. It's because emulating 3.2GHz PowerPC cores with using 1.6GHz x86 cores is a bitch. The XBone can't really emulate X360 titles either. The X360 discs are used to bring up the assets but the system needs to download re-compiled binaries. Microsoft is spending a bit on resources there.
And then there's the possibility that Sony actually did try to streamline some cross-gen conversion like Microsoft did with X360 -> XBone, but couldn't because the Cell's 7 SPEs are an added difficulty.

As for the PS5, people have come up with 1 + 2 + 3 registered patents from Sony that relate to backwards compatibility.
At this point it would be a really longshot to assume the PS5 isn't bringing BC from the PS4 at least, even in the very small chance they're not going with another full AMD CPU+GPU solution.


Respectfully, I think the goal is to not make this into a console war thread.
Well you know it became a console war thread the moment @BRiT started a list war. :D
I'm prefectly fine with people taking a new happening, piece of information, announcement, leak etc. and discussing how that may affect the market.
In this case, it just seems to me that people are taking no information and discussing how this will affect the market.
It's probably because we're in a clearly dry period of announcements and leaks (again, right after Q1 which is usual), but some suppositions here seem super crazy and clearly on the FUD level.


1) Game Pass
2) VRR, HDMI 2.1, 120Hz Refresh, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos
3) 3 Generations of BC
4) Streaming
5) Play Anywhere / Cross Play with NSW and PC support / Steam Probabilities
6) The studio purchases to bolster their 1P lineup.
1) Gamepass' value isn't that great when compared to a long-time Plus subscription. Besides, its value probably isn't sustainable for Microsoft, in the long term.
2) None of these is crucial for the PS4 Pro since there are very few VRR TVs and the console doesn't support UHD Blurays. For the PS5 there's no info because that console is unannounced at the moment.
3) Is more than earlier-gen of BC significantly important? I see BC as important during the generation transitions (while the new gen has few interesting titles). Sure it's a cool thing to have, but I doubt there's a lot of XBone owners playing Halo 1.
4) Already on the PS4?
5) Discussed above
6) As you said, Microsoft purchased studios because they have a first-party weakness (and throwing money at the problem may not always solve the problem). Sony doesn't have that weakness and their clients seem content with their yearly flux of multiple awarded games.


I think from last set of official communications:
State of Play which just happened
E3 2018 was a remaster of E32017 + PSX 2017
There was no PSX 2018
There is no E3 2019

So that really leaves a large gulf for the last time they've been officially communicated something.

We don't know how the communications for 2019 will be. The State of Play was announced only 3 days before happening, and if Sony is continuing with this method then there's no way to know how often they will engage with their audience.

As for 2018, there was a gulf of new announcements.
The PS4 platform peaked in 2017 and they've been draining the stock of the titles they announced within the past 3 years.. by actually releasing those titles.

There aren't any more titles to announce because all the unannounced games in development are coming to an unannounced platform.
This should be yet another indicator of how close the PS5 is from release, and IMO it's rather preposterous to claim it's going to take another 2 years.
Last I saw of rumours coming from retailers, Sony was still undecided between November 2019 and March 2020, and the only factor hanging in the balance is the number of games ready for the release window.
 
1) Gamepass' value isn't that great when compared to a long-time Plus subscription. Besides, its value probably isn't sustainable for Microsoft, in the long term.
2) None of these is crucial for the PS4 Pro since there are very few VRR TVs and the console doesn't support UHD Blurays. For the PS5 there's no info because that console is unannounced at the moment.
3) Is more than earlier-gen of BC significantly important? I see BC as important during the generation transitions (while the new gen has few interesting titles). Sure it's a cool thing to have, but I doubt there's a lot of XBone owners playing Halo 1.
4) Already on the PS4?
5) Discussed above
6) As you said, Microsoft purchased studios because they have a first-party weakness (and throwing money at the problem may not always solve the problem). Sony doesn't have that weakness and their clients seem content with their yearly flux of multiple awarded games.
1) Not a comparable service at all but okay. How many new games does PS Plus give you right now? I believe this number dropped to 2 now that they no longer give out Vita or PS3 titles. Gold gives 4 games per month. Game Pass is bringing in 10 titles just this month, some of them very relevant and new. Just Cause 4 hit game pass after 3 months of release. It's not like MS is holding a gun to their head. They did this on their own.

2) Well then that's exactly the type of thing other shoppers could be looking for in a new console.

3) I think the idea that they can handle BC back that far is pretty much proof that they can do XBO to NextXbox BC as well. And expect NextXbox to BC all the same titles. I think that sends the communication that they are committed to BC as a feature moving forward since the investment was colossal.

4) Unless you can pay for a streaming service that streams games that launch on Day 1 - I would have to disagree with that.

5) Cross play with other vendors is important, as long as people desire it.

6) Well nothing is guaranteed. But I can't see how buying more studios to bolster the amount of content they need to develop is going to make things worse.
Once again this thread isn't about your viewpoints on Xbox's quality of delivery. It's a discussion about communications and how it comes back to their own client base and potential new clients.
We don't know how the communications for 2019 will be. The State of Play was announced only 3 days before happening, and if Sony is continuing with this method then there's no way to know how often they will engage with their audience.

As for 2018, there was a gulf of new announcements.
The PS4 platform peaked in 2017 and they've been draining the stock of the titles they announced within the past 3 years.. by actually releasing those titles.

There aren't any more titles to announce because all the unannounced games in development are coming to an unannounced platform.
This should be yet another indicator of how close the PS5 is from release, and IMO it's rather preposterous to claim it's going to take another 2 years.
Last I saw of rumours coming from retailers, Sony was still undecided between November 2019 and March 2020, and the only factor hanging in the balance is the number of games ready for the release window.
You're right, we don't know.
We only know that they won't have E3 2019 which is the place for big announcements.
Yes 2017 was the peak and they have been releasing those titles.
IIRC during the period in which PS3 was transitioning to PS4, weren't they announcing titles for PS3? IIRC they had games launching on PS3 weeks before PS4 was launched. We were comparing games like GT5 vs Forza 5.

About the topic that games are being covered up until PS5 being released. So I assume that means none of those titles are coming to PS4 then? Not saying your'e wrong, just, seems like a premature announcement of the end of exclusives for PS4. Like they did it 1-2 years too early.
 
1) Not a comparable service at all but okay. How many new games does PS Plus give you right now?
Sorry Gamepass is similar to Playstation Now, Games with Gold is similar to Plus.
Plus is bringing 2 new games every month. PS Now has 275 PS4 games (according to the latest news), plus the ~400 streamable PS3 games.
They're pretty comparable, with Now having the advantage of being able to stream on PC/PS4 (PS4 + PS3 + PS2 titles) and download to play locally on PS4 (PS4 + PS2 titles) within the same service.
Two slightly different approaches with Now being more expensive because it includes the streaming aspect.

Just Cause 4 hit game pass after 3 months of release. It's not like MS is holding a gun to their head. They did this on their own.
Just Cause 4 hit game pass soon after release because Microsoft offered Square Enix enough money for it.
That's the part that may not be sustainable in the long term.


2) Well then that's exactly the type of thing other shoppers could be looking for in a new console.
All shoppers might be looking for those features in a new console, but very few of those will be purchasing a new console before the next generation comes out.
I'm sorry for those who do, though. Imagine buying a PS3 in early 2013, what a trainwreck of a decision.


3) I think the idea that they can handle BC back that far is pretty much proof that they can do XBO to NextXbox BC as well.
So?
If the PS5 does PS4 BC (as heavily suggested by all those patent registrations and reports of Sony going with AMD again), how much more of an advantage does Microsoft have over Sony?


5) Cross play with other vendors is important, as long as people desire it.
Crossplay is much more important for Microsoft than it is for Sony, for the simple reasons that you're more 2x likely to have friends with PS4 than ones with XBone, and PS4 multiplayer servers will have 2x more players than similar XBone servers, for any given 3rd party multiplayer game.



6) Well nothing is guaranteed. But I can't see how buying more studios to bolster the amount of content they need to develop is going to make things worse.
Once again this thread isn't about your viewpoints on Xbox's quality of delivery. It's a discussion about communications and how it comes back to their own client base and potential new clients.
I didn't make personal remarks about Xbox's quality of delivery. I only made the general statement that purchasing studios or funding the development of exclusive games doesn't guarantee success, as we saw with Microsoft's $1Bn investment back in 2013 not resulting in a very strong 1st/2nd party offering.


IIRC during the period in which PS3 was transitioning to PS4, weren't they announcing titles for PS3? IIRC they had games launching on PS3 weeks before PS4 was launched.
It's something they did. It doesn't mean it's something they did right.
Regardless, AFAIR those games ended up being cross-gen titles (e.g. TLoU). Maybe the PS4+PS5 titles were already announced? Like for example Ghost of Tsushima, TLoU 2 and Death Stranding (which IIRC still have no concrete launch date other than 2019).




About the topic that games are being covered up until PS5 being released. So I assume that means none of those titles are coming to PS4 then? Not saying your'e wrong, just, seems like a premature announcement of the end of exclusives for PS4. Like they did it 1-2 years too early.
Maybe they did it 1 year too early, but the truth is there's a ton of high-profile PS4 exclusives set to release this year. So why complain?
Other than that, I'm sure all those yearly EA Sports (and similar) games will be releasing on the PS4 for several years to come.
 
I agree. PS360 generation shows us though that tens of millions of PS users aren't that loyal, and Sony needs to be securing them. This isn't about an all-of-nothing mass exodus, but reducing market-share shrinkage by engaging in the userbase and ensuring their eye never wanders.

An outliner example where Sony still sold the same as MS? PS3 was a car crash starting a year after X360 with a significantly higher price, lacked many of the X360 features and the big 3rd party games ran better. Yet still it sold more with launches aligned. What are the odds of Sony pulling another PS3!?

You know Xbat, you're absolutely right. Microsoft definitely has no new content coming from the new studios they acquired and opened. They did it for the lolz.

It’s an unknown though, when was the last decent new IP from MS? Their biggest games are still Halo, Forza and Gears.

The 360/PS3 generation clearly shows this doesn't work all the time. PS2 was Sony's most successful console, that didn't really help for the 'meh' PS3 though. Their E3 marketing wasn't anything to go by either, wasn't that E3 2005/6 with the 'ridge racer incident'?

See above my response to shifty

And there it is again, it is the only thing i see in Sony's advantage being named for the most. Again, most people don't buy a PS4 for it's exclusives, otherwise those exclusives would sell much more then they do now..

It's not the only reason but it is a big reason. And not necessarily specific titles, more we know Sony will give us some good new IPs and a big variety of games as they always do/have done.

The only thing we can really say about PS3 marketing was Kevin Butler was brilliant and Sony leveraged a superb long-term campaign to win mindshare. Let's imagine for a moment Sony did everything the same for PS3 as they actually did, only without Kevin Butler, and staying silent and just doing their thing, quietly making games. There's no 'It Only Does Everything' and nothing more to sell on than the strength of the exclusives. Would PS3 have done so well? I don't think anyone here would believe so, meaning it should be self-evident how well marketing can help win people over to your platform. ;)

Yes, I loved KB and miss him still...but (like MS) Sony had to make the noise.

The 360/PS3 shows this exactly, that what people know when they pick their console is important. A lot of potential early adopters looked at the cost of PS3 and said "no thanks". Once PS3 was out, the cost was still an issue and then it was known that many cross-platform games ran worse than their 360 counterparts. It wasn't until Sony addressed both of these points, which took many years, that PS3 sales turned around.

Again, it actually outsold X360 launches aligned...unless you're talking in just the US of course.
 
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