Nvidia DLSS 1 and 2 antialiasing discussion *spawn*

[CarstenS]

Yea it's really splitting hairs. Most people will take the frame rate boost, that's appreciably more frame rate vs the loss on detail, especially in motion.
unless you had a lot of horsepower where native is concerned, I would DLSS.

Hopefully people realize that they also have the option of lowering in-game details in order to achieve a fps boost. The additional upside of it would be that it works at every resolution, does not require tensor cores and can be fine-tuned to individual taste.

Maybe I should start to market "reduced details for more fps" as the marvelous RDFMF-technique.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Maybe I should start to market "reduced details for more fps" as the marvelous RDFMF-technique.

NV already beat you to that with DLSS.

Regards,
SB

 

[DavidGraham]

Hopefully people realize that they also have the option of lowering in-game details in order to achieve a fps boost.

Lowering in game details works differently to lowering pixel density. On the first one you are degrading the quality of pixel shading, you are losing shadows, lighting, draw distance, complexity of effects, geometry details .. etc. While the second one you are keeping all of that and just losing clarity or sharpness. That's a BIG difference.

It's the same thing as watching a movie @1080p, and then watching it @4K, in both instances all the details of the movie are kept intact, but sharpness and clarity is improved with the higher resolution.

 

[milk]

Maybe I should start to market "reduced details for more fps" as the marvelous RDFMF-technique.

If we could just find a reason to shoehorn neural networks in there we've got a winner in our hands.

 

[CarstenS]

Lowering in game details works differently to lowering pixel density. On the first one you are degrading the quality of pixel shading, you are losing shadows, lighting, draw distance, complexity of effects, geometry details .. etc. While the second one you are keeping all of that and just losing clarity or sharpness. That's a BIG difference.

It's the same thing as watching a movie @1080p, and then watching it @4K, in both instances all the details of the movie are kept intact, but sharpness and clarity is improved with the higher resolution.

Right, you're degrading the quality of the pixels in a very fine grained way and can choose what to degrade. And you're not being told you still play at maximum details while it isn't so. Whereas in a theater watching 4k movie that looks like a 1080p one, I'd want my money back.

 

[pharma]

The frame rate benefit is the massive seller here.

True, and it seems like there have been some visual improvements in the DLSS technique. Link below has some comparison screenshots but the review is not complete.

Anthem has the best DLSS implementation to date, comparison screenshots + benchmarks
March 27, 2019
NVIDIA initially disappointed a lot of its Turing fans with the awful first implementations of DLSS for both Battlefield 5 and Metro Exodus. As we’ve stated, these initial implementations looked blurry as hell and were nowhere close to native 4K (or even 2560×1440). The green team was quick to react and released newer and better versions of DLSS for these two games, however most of its fans were disheartened by those initial results.

That disappointment does not carry over to Anthem as Bioware’s latest looter shooter has the best DLSS implementation we’ve seen to date. Not only does it run better than native 4K, it also looks sharper.

https://www.dsogaming.com/articles/anthem-has-the-best-dlss-implementation-to-date-comparison-screenshots-benchmarks/#more-124126

 

[Shifty Geezer]

DF on Anthem's application of DLSS. Very positive on the whole.

This is going to irk Iroboto though...!

I do think it is a good alternative to resolution scaling in this title especially if you prefer a more stable imagine in general than one whose detail could translate to noise in motion. But that greater stability on opaque edges makes me wonder how DLSS would work as a normal anti-aliasing alternative to standard TAA we see in games. DLSS 2x has yet to exist in any game so far - this would take the DLSS principle and apply it to anti-aliasing at native resolution. I would really like to see Nvidia offer that option in a few games as its results even below native resolution are very impressive.

 

[Kaotik]

DF on Anthem's application of DLSS. Very positive on the whole.

This is going to irk Iroboto though...!

Considering that NVIDIA has currently lined that DLSS will be available only to improve performance, I wouldn't hold my breath with DLSS 2X which will always hurt performance

Also, I disagree about Anthem, the sharpen-filter is absolutely horrible, small details are lost as usual and contrast differences are exaggarated like there's no tomorrow (might be just part of the horrible sharpen-filter though)
https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/software/anthem_rtx_dlss_pc_performance_review/1

Someone with Anthem should do comparison with just lower rendering resolution scaled to native like with Battlefield etc (it's not available in menus but can be done by adding "GstRender.ResolutionScale x.xxxxxx" line to ini at Documents > BioWare > Anthem > Settings > ProfileOptions_profile, as with other frostbite titles, 80% resolution would be 0.800000 etc)

 

[iroboto]

DF on Anthem's application of DLSS. Very positive on the whole.

This is going to irk Iroboto though...!

oh god @Dictator what have you done!

j/k
Great article. No irking, certainly a more thorough examination of the technology than my quick eyeballing.
I appreciate the detail. I also hope for DLSS 2X

 

[iroboto]

Considering that NVIDIA has currently lined that DLSS will be available only to improve performance, I wouldn't hold my breath with DLSS 2X which will always hurt performance

DLSS should have a very consistent frame time per resolution. 4K will take longer than 1440p etc. But it will be consistent at least.

 

[gamervivek]

DF on Anthem's application of DLSS. Very positive on the whole.

This is going to irk Iroboto though...!

That texture detail loss at 6:35, yikes.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Great article. No irking, certainly a more thorough examination of the technology than my quick eyeballing.
I appreciate the detail. I also hope for DLSS 2X

I'm confused. You've described DLSS as an AA technique already, that's also optionally used for upscaling, but doesn't need to upscale. Is the issue here just a lack of an option to use DLSS AA? 'DLSS 2X' I'd assume to be DLSS at 2x resolution then downsampled, because you can't sample anything else twice.

 

[iroboto]

I'm confused. You've described DLSS as an AA technique already, that's also optionally used for upscaling, but doesn't need to upscale. Is the issue here just a lack of an option to use DLSS AA? 'DLSS 2X' I'd assume to be DLSS at 2x resolution then downsampled, because you can't sample anything else twice.

I was thinking Alex was calling DLSS 2X as being the same thing as DLSS running st native. I didn’t know that DLSS was always upscaling with every single option. I would like to see DLSS at native resolution.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well if DLSS 2X means 'DLSS with no upscaling' then that is a thing, but it shouldn't be called DLSS 2X (back to the name calling again!). It's just DLSS sans upscale.

Are there any games that allow DLSS without the upscale? It likely can't be a driver level feature because the system needs to be trained on each game, so would only ever be an option in game settings.

 

[Kaotik]

Well if DLSS 2X means 'DLSS with no upscaling' then that is a thing, but it shouldn't be called DLSS 2X (back to the name calling again!). It's just DLSS sans upscale.

Are there any games that allow DLSS without the upscale? It likely can't be a driver level feature because the system needs to be trained on each game, so would only ever be an option in game settings.

No, it's not available anywhere. NVIDIA has stated that DLSS will only be available to improve performance, which means DLSS 2X won't be anywhere until they change their mind about improving performance.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

"DLSS 2X" meaning "DLSSAA".

 

[iroboto]

"DLSS 2X" meaning "DLSSAA".

Lol. Yea. The most confusing naming we could ever adopt lol. It’s getting quite comical.

 

[BRiT]

"DLSS 2X"

Is DLSS2X just a shortcut of DLSSXX? Or was 2X supposed to be like "two times"?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

AFAICS it's just a term Alex has adopted, where all AA methods have a 2X or somesuch. So DLSS applied without upscaling, he calls 'DLSS 2X'. Which makes sense if following conventions in PC settings, but makes no sense when talking about techniques and technologies where the 'nX' suffix is always a count of samples per pixel. Personally I think the whole thing should be call 'Deep Learning Anti Aliasing' and 'Deep Learning Upscaling' - clear and accurate what's going on.

 

[Malo]

DLSS 2X was referenced as an SSAA method in the DLSS white paper by Nvidia. It's an actual mode they have never talked about or demonstrated at all.