Lightmapping, Probes in Games discussion *cast-off*

[milk]

Uncharted 4 had a really troubled development too, but anyways.

Except for the lighting, which sucks in comparison to ND's games. For a survival horror 30fps with better graphics would have been better.

Compared to Uncharted, RE is a far more linear game with much more simplistic action scenes. It's not comparable... there is no game running at 60fps this gen trying to do what ND do in their games.

I thought it goes without saying U4 and RE2remake are not the same exact game. And you guys are right that U4 has often much larger scope and complexity. I'm not trying to diss ND nor start a "which game is better" fan-boy flame war. They just have similar levels of detail and rendering and asset quality, with slightly different trade-offs for each.
I'm just happy that we've got a game with this quality level shooting for 60, even if it misses the target here and there. If they mantain that mindset into next gen, I'm sure they'll be able to improve quality and scope while actually hitting the framerate target constantly on base HW.

 

[OCASM]

I thought it goes without saying U4 and RE2remake are not the same exact game. And you guys are right that U4 has often much larger scope and complexity. I'm not trying to diss ND nor start a "which game is better" fan-boy flame war. They just have similar levels of detail and rendering and asset quality, with slightly different trade-offs for each.
I'm just happy that we've got a game with this quality level shooting for 60, even if it misses the target here and there. If they mantain that mindset into next gen, I'm sure they'll be able to improve quality and scope while actually hitting the framerate target constantly on base HW.

The lack of non-analytical lighting is inexcusable for a PBR game. Sorry.

 

[milk]

The lack of non-analytical lighting is inexcusable for a PBR game. Sorry.

You keep saying that, but does this game really not use probes or any other kind of image-based lighting at all? How come metals don't look completely black save for the spec highlights?

 

[OCASM]

You keep saying that, but does this game really not use probes or any other kind of image-based lighting at all? How come metals don't look completely black save for the spec highlights?

They're used for reflections but not diffuse lighting as far as i can tell. Even if they were, it's a piss poor solution compared to lightmapping.

 

[milk]

Most modern games do NOT use lightmaps for indirect lighting, but rather, irradiance probes at various levels of pre-filtering (blurring/mipmapping) depending on material roughness. You might not prefer that choice, but it is not such an unnacceptable sin within the context of most other games of this gen.
I also have my own nitpicks with ND's solution in U4, which has it's own share of shortcomings.

 

[OCASM]

Most modern games do NOT use lightmaps for indirect lighting, but rather, irradiance probes at various levels of pre-filtering (blurring/mipmapping) depending on material roughness. You might not prefer that choice, but it is not such an unnacceptable sin within the context of most other games of this gen.
I also have my own nitpicks with ND's solution in U4, which has it's own share of shortcomings.

Static environments are lightnapped. Dynamic characters use probes. RE2R uses probes for specular reflections. Diffuse lighting is extremely poor, most noticeably in the environments. If only they hadn't gone with the dark environments + flashlight cliché...

 

[milk]

Static environments are lightnapped. Dynamic characters use probes. RE2R uses probes for specular reflections. Diffuse lighting is extremely poor, most noticeably in the environments. If only they hadn't gone with the dark environments + flashlight cliché...

In what games? I think you should check your assumptions. U4 sure uses lightmaps for static geometry, and uses probes exclusively for dynamics, with plenty mismatches because of that by the way. But the majority of games use probes for everything, dynamic and static, diffuse and specular. Some have a more dense distribution of low res data for diffuse (voxel volume) and a sparser cloud (sometimes non uniform) of high res cuvemaps for specular. It's still two flavours of irradiance probe sets.

 

[OCASM]

In what games? I think you should check your assumptions. U4 sure uses lightmaps for static geometry, and uses probes exclusively for dynamics, with plenty mismatches because of that by the way. But the majority of games use probes for everything, dynamic and static, diffuse and specular. Some have a more dense distribution of low res data for diffuse (voxel volume) and a sparser cloud (sometimes non uniform) of high res cuvemaps for specular. It's still two flavours of irradiance probe sets.

Linear AAA games are pretty much all lightmapped. It's the best quality solution right now.

 

[milk]

Also, lightmaps are hard. They involve UV mapping a whole level, made of thousands of separate instances of geometry, stored in huge textures. Hiding the UV seams. Baking all that on top of the probes you inevitably need for dynamic objects. There is the question of how to handle streaming of that data as well, how to split it into different atlases and etc. How to incorporate that data within a deferred renderer. And after all that, there is still obvious mismatches between dynamics and static geometry all throughout the finished game, sometimes even giving away that an object is going to move eventually, or never, potentially spoiling surprises or whatnot.
It's not so obvious that they are the superior solution.

 

[milk]

Linear AAA games are pretty much all lightmapped. It's the best quality solution right now.

Like God of War? Quantum Break? Ryse son of Rome?
I can think of others, but I kept the list to some of the most graphically impressive games of the gen.
You're generalization is too extreme.
NOTE TO MODS: This too can be moved to the new lightmapping thread

 

[OCASM]

Like God of War? Quantum Break? Ryse son of Rome?
I can think of others, but I kept the list to some of the most graphically impressive games of the gen.
You're generalization is too extreme.
NOTE TO MODS: This too can be moved to the new lightmapping thread

All of them have more advanced lighting than RE2. Not even in the same league as QB.

Also, lightmaps are hard. They involve UV mapping a whole level, made of thousands of separate instances of geometry, stored in huge textures. Hiding the UV seams. Baking all that on top of the probes you inevitably need for dynamic objects. There is the question of how to handle streaming of that data as well, how to split it into different atlases and etc. How to incorporate that data within a deferred renderer. And after all that, there is still obvious mismatches between dynamics and static geometry all throughout the finished game, sometimes even giving away that an object is going to move eventually, or never, potentially spoiling surprises or whatnot.
It's not so obvious that they are the superior solution.

They are far superior to what RE2 does.

Just look at that. The first part in which the characters are lit by direct lighting looks OK. The second part where they're lit by probes and the environments are lightmapped (effectively a cached ray tracing simulation) it looks like a CGI film.

 

[milk]

All of them have more advanced lighting than RE2. Not even in the same league as QB.

Fair enough, but then the lack of lightmaps or the exclusive use of probes is not the real issue. It's just RE's implementation that is poor.

 

[OCASM]

Fair enough, but then the lack of lightmaps or the exclusive use of probes is not the real issue. It's just RE's implementation that is poor.

Yes, RE2R's poor lighting is the issue.

 

[milk]

ok then. We are done here.

 

[AlNom]

You light like a cow