Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [pre E3 2019]

[Deleted member 13524]

Sony might but I could see Microsoft just stick the flash right on the board and emphasize external drives again.

Even if it's soldered, it'll still need a NVMe controller/interface and PCIe bus.

Unless you're willing to believe Microsoft and AMD were willing to invent, research, develop and implement a new type of mass storage interface with a custom controller for the next xbox...
But if apple and samsung use NVMe for their high-margin + high-volume lines of smartphones, I doubt it would make sense for Microsoft to do it.

 

[metacore]

If they can't reach RAM capacities anywhere near previous gen 8-16x jumps and bolted speedy flash cache would help with assets streaming. Some flash would already be there for OS so lets make it bigger and make it count for apps, with recent price collapse and chineese fabs on horizon this part also has potential for cost reductions. There is also already issue with loading times and this is consumer market more and more accustomed to smartphone snapiness.

All things considered SSD might be quite high on list of priorities. IF those rumros have any worth, that 1GB/s speed might just be a cap standing in documentation as always present in every sku as a guarateed baseline to devs to play with even if there are faster nvme drives on market. Such set up would also help with future sourcing of cheaper parts.

 

[mpg1]

Even if it's soldered, it'll still need a NVMe controller/interface and PCIe bus.

Unless you're willing to believe Microsoft and AMD were willing to invent, research, develop and implement a new type of mass storage interface with a custom controller for the next xbox...
But if apple and samsung use NVMe for their high-margin + high-volume lines of smartphones, I doubt it would make sense for Microsoft to do it.

Yes but it's never worded like that outside of the PC market....which was my original point. When looking at these leaks the wording matters when trying to see if it's correct. Whenever storage is embedded on a consumer device like a smartphone or tablet or Nintendo Switch it's just called "flash storage".

Using specific PC-sphere terminology describing the storage is a red flag for me. I guess it's possible it was a non-tech person just regurgitating a highly detailed spec sheet. But if that's the case why no details on bus width/memory bandwidth for the memory?

 

[BRiT]

If they can't reach RAM capacities anywhere near previous gen 8-16x jumps

They can't and they won't. Using bare minimum numbers that means you're saying they should aim for 40-80 GB RAM for Games using PS4 as the last-gen base, or 72-144 GB for Games using the One X as the last-gen base.

So hopefully they aim to accelerate loading using fast cache pools from SSD.

 

[bgroovy]

Finally saw a saved version of the Reddit post. You have to be high if you think that after three years the PS5 will only be 33% faster than an Xbox One X. They more than doubled the PS4's power in the same timeframe going to the Pro.

 

[vipa899]

Same with Tflops and all that, we cant expect jumps like that anymore.

 

[BRiT]

Finally saw a saved version of the Reddit post. You have to be high if you think that after three years the PS5 will only be 33% faster than an Xbox One X.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

 

[metacore]

They can't and they won't. Using bare minimum numbers that means you're saying they should aim for 40-80 GB RAM for Games using PS4 as the last-gen base, or 72-144 GB for Games using the One X as the last-gen base.

So hopefully they aim to accelerate loading using fast cache pools from SSD.

Yeah can't and won't obviously goes without saying even if they would probalbly done it to "preserve tradition" if tech scaling allowed like in old days.

16Gigs in 4k world and required assets is nothing special too IMO. In order to succesfully launch new round bigger market must see clear diffrence in gfx complexity and feel the hype. SSD cache might just be that thing which help a bit to achive that new gen feel in current tech conditions. Someteens of GB for things currently on screen and ssd cache holding rest of climbing towers for quick stream. BTW sebbi mentioned something like " HBCC works and he is using it all the time" so there is that.

 

[DmitryKo]

I could see Microsoft just stick the flash right on the board and emphasize external drives again.

Even if it's soldered, it'll still need a NVMe controller/interface and PCIe bus.

All things considered SSD might be quite high on list of priorities.

They wouldn't need to use off-the-shelf parts like NVMe SSDs and 3rd party controllers.

AMD's HBCC (High Bandwidth Cache Controller, i.e. memory/cache controller) directly supports non-volatile memory.

It also has additional virtual memory tables to support swapping between very fast GDDR/HBM memory (the titular 'cache'), system RAM and NVRAM.

 

[McHuj]

Finally saw a saved version of the Reddit post. You have to be high if you think that after three years the PS5 will only be 33% faster than an Xbox One X. They more than doubled the PS4's power in the same timeframe going to the Pro.

Who said anything about it being only 33% faster than a Xbox One X. Raw teraflop counts aren't completely indicative of actual real world performance.

 

[ultragpu]

OK I'm even more confused, if Lockhart isn't a streaming box but only with 4 tf does that mean MS is setting their base console that low, like lower than the 1X? A far more believable scenario would be Streaming box at 2tf, a base Next XBox at 8 tf and the high end at 12 tf while PS5 sandwiched at 10-11 tf. Also no way PS5 only equips with 12 GB gddr6.
Also while I agree Navi flops are probably more efficient than Vega's but it's hard to imagine AMD could catch up to Turing flops overnight.

 

[MrFox]

Also while I agree Navi flops are probably more efficient than Vega's but it's hard to imagine AMD could catch up to Turing flops overnight.

Surely AMD have been working on their post-GCN architecture for many many years. Why wouldn't they catch up when it finally comes out? Zen seems to be a pretty good competition against intel, despite a few years ago people saying it was impossible because of intel's superior fabs.

At work we haven't made any bid for anything other than nvidia/intel in the last 10 years. And Zen is now right there in the rear view mirror. It's... uh... closer than it appears.

 

[ultragpu]

Surely AMD have been working on their post-GCN architecture for many many years. Why wouldn't they catch up when it finally comes out? Zen seems to be a pretty good competition against intel, despite a few years ago people saying it was impossible because of intel's superior fabs.

At work we haven't made any bid for anything other than nvidia/intel in the last 10 years. And Zen is now right there in the rear view mirror. It's... uh... closer than it appears.

I absolutely hope you're right. Tho I got a feeling next gen is gonna be weird if launch units have such a vast split of power, only time will tell.

 

[metacore]

They wouldn't need to use off-the-shelf parts like NVMe SSDs and 3rd party controllers.

AMD's HBCC (High Bandwidth Cache Controller, i.e. memory/cache controller) directly supports non-volatile memory.

It also has additional virtual memory tables to support swapping between very fast GDDR/HBM memory (the titular 'cache'), system RAM and NVRAM.

Yeah, definitley something integrated, maybe just renamed HBCC, amd already did work and answer is in plain sight. I think if speedy SSD is true only thing that makes sense is BGA solution not some replaceble m2 slots as that would be integral part of architecture/system with , so something like this.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13337/adata-unveils-iusp33f-bga-ssds
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10166/samsung-demos-its-first-bga-ssd
(or maybe opposite and it's replaceble m2 drive in case of wear... )

If having speedy ssd and related goodnes would be strong point of unveil and it would have some minimal sufficient capacity for instalation then maaaybee they could risk a gamble and make standard bigger sata hdd/ssd last layer of storage not included and entirely optional to consumer. Heh most hardcores already bought drives for current consoles so there should't be to much outrage . I would gladly take such compromise.

 

[MrFox]

I absolutely hope you're right. Tho I got a feeling next gen is gonna be weird if launch units have such a vast split of power, only time will tell.

I don't believe any of the rumors (I've been naive too many times, they never pan out at this stage). there is no indication either company have access to different power per dollar, so it's still a business decision to make the most powerful 399 or 499 console based on what AMD has to offer within that time frame. Both are also actively deploying game streaming so they aren't very different in their hardware needs for the racks.

What worries me a bit is... What will we get if navi is still GCN, because next gen arch isn't ready in time? Is it still usable with some modifications and additional compute blocks?

We mention nvidia as a comparison, but it doesn't matter if they aren't a possibility for these consoles.

 

[DmitryKo]

I think if speedy SSD is true only thing that makes sense is BGA solution

Again, HBCC does not work with a SSD (i.e. external SATA or PCIe/NVMe controller connected to SLC/MLC/QLC NAND flash memory).

HBCC may have a flash memory controller integrated - that way it only needs actual NAND flash memory packages with industry standard interfaces like Toggle Mode (Toshiba, Samsung) or ONFI (everyone else).

I'd rather believe 1 TB storage would come from a traditional HDD, as I doubt it would make any sense for a game console to spend $300 on 1 TB of flash memory, but NVRAM-based "scratch pad memory" of 60-100 GBytes should be possible.

PS. Correction: HBCC can work with NVMe SSDs.

 

[BRiT]

there is no indication either company have access to different power per dollar,

Depends if they target $399 in 2019 or $399 in 2020.

 

[metacore]

Again, HBCC does not work with a SSD (i.e. external SATA or PCIe/NVMe controller connected to SLC/MLC NAND flash memory).

HBCC has a flash memory controller integrated - so it only needs actual flash memory (non-volatile RAM) packages with industry standard interfaces like Toggle Mode (Toshiba, Samsung) or ONFI (everyone else).

I'd rather believe 1 TB storage would come from a traditional HDD, as I doubt it would make any sense for a game console to spend $300 on 1 TB of flash memory, but NVRAM-based "scratch pad memory" of 60-100 GBytes should be possible.

Got it,
Just saw mentions of m2 and nvme in other posts and somehow mixed that in reply to your opinion aboaut hbcc. Yeah some scrachpad probably is a given, The question is how big.

 

[MrFox]

Depends if they target $399 in 2019 or $399 in 2020.

Sure, that's the interesting gamble. But I think 2019 is not happening. At less than a year before launch we already knew almost eveything by this time, this feels like early 2012, with rumors all over the place for a 2012 launch which wasn't happening. And Cell 2 was still being considered a credible rumor by some crazy people.

2021 though...

 

[Kaotik]

Again, HBCC does not work with a SSD (i.e. external SATA or PCIe/NVMe controller connected to SLC/MLC/QLC NAND flash memory).

HBCC has an onboard flash memory controller - so it only needs actual NAND flash memory packages with industry standard interfaces like Toggle Mode (Toshiba, Samsung) or ONFI (everyone else).

I'd rather believe 1 TB storage would come from a traditional HDD, as I doubt it would make any sense for a game console to spend $300 on 1 TB of flash memory, but NVRAM-based "scratch pad memory" of 60-100 GBytes should be possible.

HBCC does work with SSDs, the Vega based Radeon Pro SSG uses 4x 512 GB Samsung SM961 NVMe M.2 SSDs (aka OEM version of 960 Pro)