Red Dead Redemption 2

Scott_Arm said:
It is a known problem that responsive animation comes at the cost of complexity in movement and transitions. There is no perfect animation system that can do both - not RDR2, not Uncharted, not Spiderman.
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I think there's a difference between high input lag and lack of responsiveness due to complex animations. Both can have the same feeling but one is a technical limitation while the other one is an artistic choice.

But from the small example posted by Clukos, RD2 seems to have high input lag issues too : https://streamable.com/oc4jc

It looks exactly like that :

 
DSoup said:
Arthur is definitely not a good guy but journal entries, newspaper articles and some gang conversations suggest that prior to the Blackwater job, the gang were more akin to Robin Hood's merry men - only stealing from the rich, never victimising and poor and weak, and so on. Look how the gang treat Sadie, rescuing her from certain death, showing no intention of exploiting her, which is interesting.
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Definitely, life's not black and white and Arthur definitely fits into the grey area. Like when doing Strauss debt collector missions. Arthur plays the part but you get the feeling that he really doesn't like doing it. So the moral thing is there so you can be a complete bastard or have some dignity.

Grey area but you still a bad guy. It just depends how bad you want to be? I sadly have been by accident a bit of a bastard by pushing R2 by mistake and killing people:runaway::mad:
 
Scott_Arm said:
What's best for you is not going to be what's best for me. It is a known problem that responsive animation comes at the cost of complexity in movement and transitions. There is no perfect animation system that can do both - not RDR2, not Uncharted, not Spiderman. Unless motion-matching works out, or some other new animation system, this problem will remain. Did RDR2 strike the right balance? Obviously for many people the answer is no. I just view it as an artistic choice that comes with pros and cons. If I were playing a twitch shooter with animation like this, it would probably drive me up the wall. For this game, it's not so much of a problem for me. I would be interested in playing it on PC later, at a much higher frame rate, to see how it feels by comparison.
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IIRC everyone, myself included, was raving about the next gen animation system in TLOU2 for what they showed.
If in this game, everyone is getting upset, I should expect similar disappointment in TLOU2.
 
iroboto said:
IIRC everyone, myself included, was raving about the next gen animation system in TLOU2 for what they showed.
If in this game, everyone is getting upset, I should expect similar disappointment in TLOU2.
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Yup. Thank God the devs don't listen to the minority of complainers. For me it's all about the experiences, in games like The Last of Us or Red Dead that are more grounded I love the slower more deliberate animations. People aren't super robots they don't have super fast reflexes . So like in real life you have to get used to the movement and adapt and think about what you going to do before hand. I'm not saying Red Deads is perfect I still have to get used to free aim and what settings to use. I feel the aim assist is to strong for my liking but I'm struggling a bit with the free aim.
 
Recop said:
You can have both through. Uncharted/TLL and Spiderman come to my mind.

Overall, the game is outstanding, but it can't be the best everywhere.
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Uncharted is one of the worst when it comes to interacting with things with how the character "snaps" to things they are allowed to interact with at which point a canned animation happens.

But that isn't necessarily a bad thing if responsive controls are more important than realism.

Regards,
SB
 
Recop said:
I think there's a difference between high input lag and lack of responsiveness due to complex animations. Both can have the same feeling but one is a technical limitation while the other one is an artistic choice.

But from the small example posted by Clukos, RD2 seems to have high input lag issues too : https://streamable.com/oc4jc

It looks exactly like that :

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These are not good tests. How much display lag does that tv have? It can be significant, especially on some tvs with 4k + HDR enabled. The only way to test input lag is with more complex setups.

Those complaints aside, It is true that the character takes a long time to respond to movement from a standstill. It's true even on my gaming monitor, which has ideal input lag. But if you use the right stick to move the camera, it does not have the same delay. So it is not a general input lag, but something specific to the animation system that moves the player. I do not believe that this game has high input lag.

Someone should do a more comprehensive evaluation of the delay in responses from standstill vs corrections to movement while in motion, as well as a number of different button inputs. My guess is that some animations respond much quicker than others. You can draw your gun, or quick draw pretty fast, for example.

I'm not going to do that comparison because I don't really care that much.


Edit: I'm very confident this game does not have high input lag. The camera and aim respond quickly, as does a quick draw (hold LT/L2 then press RT/R1). Movement also responds quickly once you're in motion as long as you are not turning sharply. If you make sharp turns the character has to complete his next step before he can change directions. It's not possible to glitch him into gliding without moving his feet by rapidly moving LS like you can in a lot of games. Each step has to be completed once it starts. Look straight down at the ground and watch his feet as he moves and you'll see how accurate it is.
 
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iroboto said:
IIRC everyone, myself included, was raving about the next gen animation system in TLOU2 for what they showed.
If in this game, everyone is getting upset, I should expect similar disappointment in TLOU2.
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Without getting into comparisons, it's very possible future titles will have better solutions that allow for better response with smaller compromises. Until games are in a players hands, we won't know. That said, it's pretty quick to look at games and see which animations require the quickest responses and then notice how blending/transitions are compromised to allow for quick responses. As gamers we generally accept jarring transitions, or the absence of transitions, between poses because it feels good, even though it is not realistic. It's usually easiest to spot them when you make sharp changes in direction, press a jump button, or hit a button for a quick melee attack in 3rd-person games. Usually the jump won't be delayed to ensure foot placement makes sense, or body posture won't transition to a punch being thrown.You don't want people missing timed jumps, and you don't want a punch to be delayed if you're gaming has tight windows between blocking etc.

My personal opinion is that RDR2 intentionally makes little compromise to the animations for response. They tend to have slow transitions that look more realistic than most games. The movement from a standstill is a bit odd, and I'm not sure why they couldn't tighten that up a bit, since it's the most apparent offender for responsiveness.
 
Xbat said:
Yup. Thank God the devs don't listen to the minority of complainers. For me it's all about the experiences, in games like The Last of Us or Red Dead that are more grounded I love the slower more deliberate animations. People aren't super robots they don't have super fast reflexes . So like in real life you have to get used to the movement and adapt and think about what you going to do before hand. I'm not saying Red Deads is perfect I still have to get used to free aim and what settings to use. I feel the aim assist is to strong for my liking but I'm struggling a bit with the free aim.
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As I and others have pointed out, try putting the aim acceleration to maximum. Setting the acceleration to the lowest setting will mean that even at maximum sensitivity your camera will move incredibly slowly and then after a long period of time reach the sensitivity you've set. With maximum acceleration the camera reaches the max speed near instantly, so it feels closest to what you'd experience in most games with aim acceleration turned off.

I have no idea why aim acceleration has become standard. Most people I know struggle to aim in games with aggressive aim acceleration. It's the first thing I look to turn off, if i can.
 
iroboto said:
IIRC everyone, myself included, was raving about the next gen animation system in TLOU2 for what they showed.
If in this game, everyone is getting upset, I should expect similar disappointment in TLOU2.
Click to expand...

We have not played TLOU2, we have played RDR2.
 
Roaming around the world with more than 1 horse makes me feel like a boss. You can really load them up. I wish you could saddle more than one.

Now I’m officially hooked on just roaming the world. Selling stuff sucks. I wish I had a carriage to sell the lot of stuff I’m collecting.
 
iroboto said:
Sure. I’m not saying it’s bad. TLOU2 will likely focus on gameplay mechanics more than what RDR2 is going for.
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It's not RDR2, every single game after GTA4 that is using the same engine feels sluggish and horrible to play, which is the main reason I haven't finished a single R* game after GTA4 other than RDR :p

Gameplay just feels bad, no two ways about it. It's that everything surrounding it is so good that you want to keep playing.
 
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iroboto said:
That’s next gen.
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Not wanting to turn this into a game versus thread, on the animation front I'm not seeing anything in RDR2 that Uncharted 4 wasn't doing better two-and-half-years ago in a control system allowed for fluid immediate changes from one action/animation to another. GDC members can check out Naughty Dog's presentation.

What RDR2 is doing that feels groundbreaking in an action game is the depth of the world and the characters who live in it. Like killing one member of a family and then you start seeing family members grieving over a grave. I'm genuinely curious if its possible to completely wipe out an entire town.

iroboto said:
IIRC everyone, myself included, was raving about the next gen animation system in TLOU2 for what they showed. If in this game, everyone is getting upset, I should expect similar disappointment in TLOU2.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you've not played a modern Naughty Dog game? In RDR2 it feels like you cannot make any movement or action until the animation for the current action has completed, which can take several seconds. In Uncharted and The Last of Us, mid-action/animation you do immediately do something else and one action/animation immediately and seamlessly transitions into the new one. And yet the characters still feel 'heavy'.
 
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8 years in the making, 3000 employees with a budget that devours the universe itself, yet Rockstar couldn't get HDR right, how very embarrassing and disappointing. I have been wondering why the hell it looked so dim on a 1800 nits set, just imagine it's mastered at 4000 nits with WCG. Probably another reason the game just doesn't pop for me.
 
ultragpu said:
8 years in the making, 3000 employees with a budget that devours the universe itself, yet Rockstar couldn't get HDR right, how very embarrassing and disappointing. I have been wondering why the hell it looked so dim on a 1800 nits set, just imagine it's mastered at 4000 nits with WCG. Probably another reason the game just doesn't pop for me.
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Turn HDR off for now, until they fix it. If they ever do.
 
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