Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [2018]

[iroboto]

Thank you both. Though I fear the answers from sebbbi are a bit beyond my understanding. It feels just a touch out of reach for my knowledge.

Could have sworn I saw a graph of CPU usage that depicted an incredible percentage of usage that going to primitive shaders would eliminate or vastly reduce. Sadly I cannot find it. Probably wasn't correct anyway. Or I was just misunderstanding it.

The CPU savings isn't from running a primitive shader (shaders are run on the GPU) it's from letting the GPU dispatch draw calls instead of the CPU having to dispatch them. (at least the patent in question is being interpreted to achieve)
high level summary
https://www.eteknix.com/executeindi...12-brings-improved-performance-low-cpu-usage/

 

[Silenti]

The CPU savings isn't from running a primitive shader (shaders are run on the GPU) it's from letting the GPU dispatch draw calls instead of the CPU having to dispatch them. (at least the patent in question is being interpreted to achieve)
high level summary
https://www.eteknix.com/executeindi...12-brings-improved-performance-low-cpu-usage/

Thanks. That is what I understood it to be. Just wasn't clear in my previous post I guess.

 

[Shortbread]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

Remastering by emulation

Abstract

Each asset such as a texture called for by legacy software such as a legacy computer game software has a unique identifier associated with it. The unique identifier can be rendered by imposing a hash on the asset, and then the asset stored with its identifier in a data structure. An artist remasters the textures for presentation on a higher resolution display than envisioned in the original software, and stores them back in the data structure with their identifiers. The original software is then played on the higher resolution display, with asset (such as texture) calls being intercepted, identified, and the data structure entered to retrieve the remastered asset having a matching identifier. The remastered asset is then inserted on the fly into the game presentation.

 

[anexanhume]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

Good find! A non-Cerny patent. This definitely looks like a boost mode or upscaling solution by doing it to textures individually rather than upconverting the final product (which I assume is also done).

How about this one: VRR for local rendering (tired) and streaming applications (wired):

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/22/c5/4a/5b06ab68d8f7ae/US20180277054A1.pdf

Discarding unneeded pixel operations:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/12/47/34/54b44a1e7d29c0/US20180101977A1.pdf

Dynamic tesselation factoring:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/4c/01/b0/c0e92115bfe08c/WO2018156982A1.pdf

They also want you to be able to spectate on games that are being streamed by the player:

https://patents.google.com/patent/U...ony+interactive+entertainment&sort=new&page=1

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

It's worth pointing out that they've already done this with the PS4 version of LocoRoco, which is a 4K emulated version of its PSP counterpart.

 

[3dilettante]

Was digging back through some patent applications. This one lists Cerny, Simpson and Scanlin from ND, and a senior fellow from AMD. Seems to pretty clear call out primitive shader techniques? The language seems to call out the graphics pipeline issuing its own draw calls.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/af/fd/21/53255857db81b9/US20140362102A1.pdf

Given the age and the particulars of the filing, this appears consistent with Cerny's description of an architectural customization for in the PS4.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?print=1

"There are a broad variety of techniques we've come up with to reduce the vertex bottlenecks, in some cases they are enhancements to the hardware," said Cerny. "The most interesting of those is that you can use compute as a frontend for your graphics."

This technique, he said, is "a mix of hardware, firmware inside of the GPU, and compiler technology. What happens is you take your vertex shader, and you compile it twice, once as a compute shader, once as a vertex shader. The compute shader does a triangle sieve -- it just does the position computations from the original vertex shader and sees if the triangle is backfaced, or the like. And it's generating, on the fly, a reduced set of triangles for the vertex shader to use. This compute shader and the vertex shader are very, very tightly linked inside of the hardware."

When I heard about primitive shaders, my reaction was that it sounded like they were potentially descended from this, rather than the other way around.
Conceptually, this seems like it performs much of what became the initial promises for primitive shaders, albeit not an automatic one. The PS4 method has separate compute and vertex shader workgroups communicating through synchronized buffers in the cache, which may have changed with Vega and its pipeline merging several adjacent shader stages for the purposes of coalescing the shader invocations and using the LDS as the channel of communication.
A full comparison cannot be made at this point since the console variation is not discussed much and AMD stopped talking about primitive shaders after postponing them indefinitely.

 

[DieH@rd]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

We already have maybe implementation of this on PS4, with PS2 and PSP games that are rendered in higher resolutions. There were talks that PS2 titles were emulated with instruction injection that boosted their resolution and other effects.

 

[anexanhume]

Given the age and the particulars of the filing, this appears consistent with Cerny's description of an architectural customization for in the PS4.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?print=1


When I heard about primitive shaders, my reaction was that it sounded like they were potentially descended from this, rather than the other way around.
Conceptually, this seems like it performs much of what became the initial promises for primitive shaders, albeit not an automatic one. The PS4 method has separate compute and vertex shader workgroups communicating through synchronized buffers in the cache, which may have changed with Vega and its pipeline merging several adjacent shader stages for the purposes of coalescing the shader invocations and using the LDS as the channel of communication.
A full comparison cannot be made at this point since the console variation is not discussed much and AMD stopped talking about primitive shaders after postponing them indefinitely.

It’s easy to understand where the rumors of Sony running AMD’s graphics division come from when they seem to be having so much influence on them.

 

[Shortbread]

We already have maybe implementation of this on PS4, with PS2 and PSP games that are rendered in higher resolutions. There were talks that PS2 titles were emulated with instruction injection that boosted their resolution and other effects.

Which emulated PS2 or PS3 games have "remastered texture packages" on PS4 (and honestly, I didn't know PS4 had an official emulator for running prior generation games)? Because the patent is describing artist being able to update textures without the need for revamping the original's engine's texture pipeline. The developer would simply add the updated-texture indicators where needed for the new texture package to be streamed in (of course with higher resolution being applied across the board).

From my take, its pointing towards original PS1/PS2/PS3 games not simply being up-res'd... but also having the opportunity for higher IQ assets if the dev chooses to do so (patch).

An artist remasters the textures for presentation on a higher resolution display than envisioned in the original software, and stores them back in the data structure with their identifiers.

 

[bgroovy]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

This is exactly how the PSP remakes for PS4, including Parapa and Locoroco worked. PSP version was emulated and all assets were replaced at runtime (I think the original assets are all still present in the original game image used). Probably not dissimilar to texture packs you can load in Dolphin, etc.

 

[Shortbread]

This is exactly how the PSP remakes for PS4, including Parapa and Locoroco worked. PSP version was emulated and all assets were replaced at runtime (I think the original assets are all still present in the original game image used). Probably not dissimilar to texture packs you can load in Dolphin, etc.

I see.

PaRappa the Rapper’s relatively recent remaster is actually an emulated version of the PlayStation Portable release with new textures. Some amazing technical tomfoolery from hackers working with cracked PlayStation 4 consoles has revealed that the rhythm game is running on a UMD disc image, identical to the original handheld release. Further work has enabled code junkies to install and run some other PSP games on the console.

It’s probably safe to assume that Patapon and LocoRoco are using the same technique, leveraging PSP code and then adding 4K textures in to complete the “remaster” illusion.

I didn't know PS4 was running official emulated software. I was always under the impression that PlayStation Now (game streaming services) handled PS1, PS2 & PS3 gaming because of the lack of backwards compatibility. If Sony has official emulators for the PS4 on doing so... what the hell!? I would love to pop my PS oldies into my Pro system, similar to my XBO-X.

 

[JPT]

I see.




I didn't know PS4 was running official emulated software. I was always under the impression that PlayStation Now (game streaming services) handled PS1, PS2 & PS3 gaming because of the lack of backwards compatibility. If Sony has official emulators for the PS4 on doing so... what the hell!? I would love to pop my PS oldies into my Pro system, similar to my XBO-X.

Well Parapa and Locoroco are PSP. But can a PS4 read cdrom/dvd discs?

 

[bgroovy]

I didn't know PS4 was running official emulated software. I was always under the impression that PlayStation Now (game streaming services) handled PS1, PS2 & PS3 gaming because of the lack of backwards compatibility. If Sony has official emulators for the PS4 on doing so... what the hell!? I would love to pop my PS oldies into my Pro system, similar to my XBO-X.

The PS2 on PS4 titles being sold on PSN are emulated as well. They've just never gotten around to releasing a PS1 emulator, though in theory the existing PSP emulation they have would have PS1 support by default. PS3 games were never a technical possibility. No insert your own disc emulation is offered at all on PS4.

 

[London Geezer]

Well Parapa and Locoroco are PSP. But can a PS4 read cdrom/dvd discs?

DVD yes for sure. CD-ROM I’m not sure.

 

[DieH@rd]

Not a 100% sure, but this patent seems to have some relation to backwards compatibility, through emulation (PS5?), allowing developers to add better assets (if they choose to), with the emulator adding these updates on "fly."

Sony already achieved this "Remastering by Emulation" approach and you can experience it today.

Parappa the Rapper on PS4 is a PSP emulated game, but emulator is intercepting the CPU calls on the fly and switching texture load toward the new high-res files.
http://wololo.net/2018/05/09/psp-games-homebrews-might-come-hacked-ps4-soon/

 

[anexanhume]

Variable sized wavefronts seems very applicable, but I’m curious how much out of order shader exports would benefit the pipeline.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c7/90/a1/23f99d6a7a251a/WO2018156635A1.pdf

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/05/e1/b3/a4713c2efc3ce3/WO2018140238A1.pdf

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well Parapa and Locoroco are PSP. But can a PS4 read cdrom/dvd discs?

Nope.

Playback of these types of discs is not supported.

• CD
• ..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To be clear, Sony has a full emulator for playing PS2 (apparently not PS1) which has been exposed in hacked consoles. The only thing stopping PS4 from playing PS2 game discs is Sony locking out the emulator rather than patching it be open and play (rip) discs.

 

[iroboto]

To be clear, Sony has a full emulator for playing PS2 (apparently not PS1) which has been exposed in hacked consoles. The only thing stopping PS4 from playing PS2 game discs is Sony locking out the emulator rather than patching it be open and play (rip) discs.

Licensing issues could be part of the reason. It’s clearly not a technical issue.

MS has indicated licensing is the greatest barrier to BC. They’ve had to go back for all the previously issued contracts (for this gen) and remake them to support future BC.

 

[beyondtest]

Licensing issues could be part of the reason. It’s clearly not a technical issue.

MS has indicated licensing is the greatest barrier to BC. They’ve had to go back for all the previously issued contracts (for this gen) and remake them to support future BC.

Makes me wonder if there's so much hampering in designs due to licences and their expenses.

Maybe Sony could be facing an issue with PSN name change due to patents and licences.

Anyway, with the insane prices of RAM and VRAM coupled with inflation and tariffs, is it more plausible to have 8GB GDDR6/HBM3 + 8 GB DDR4 for a $ 399 console rather than my previously mentioned 12 GB VRAM / 4GB RAM specially if it were to release sooner?