Digital Foundry Retro Discussion [2018 - 2020]

[HMBR]

the quality is better no doubt, but that was to be expected I think (Nintendo official emulation never looked perfect), but the SNES mini is clearly targeting a different audience with many games and controllers included, well also it's from the company that made the SNES.

it's interesting how close the NT is to Higan/Bsnes, even the little problems
I was just a little disappointed that the DF video didn't include maybe retroarch running the higan core or snes9x, also his comment about performance is a little misleading mentioning his i9.
higan runs fine on a fast Core 2 Duo, and they offer lighter versions with minimal loss to accuracy that can run even on a Pentium 4 I think.

 

[JLinneman]

I'm about to begin working on a Panzer Dragon 1 and 2 episode (Saga and Orta will follow at a later date, of course).

I've always appreciated the use of VDP2's infinite scroll planes in those games to create vast environments but I'm curious if anyone here is familiar with how VDP2 was manipulated to pull off the water effect seen in these games (and Grandia). I haven't been able to dig up a clear explanation of how that works. It's really a nifty feature.

 

[Riddlewire]

I'm about to begin working on a Panzer Dragon 1 and 2 episode (Saga and Orta will follow at a later date, of course).

I've always appreciated the use of VDP2's infinite scroll planes in those games to create vast environments but I'm curious if anyone here is familiar with how VDP2 was manipulated to pull off the water effect seen in these games (and Grandia). I haven't been able to dig up a clear explanation of how that works. It's really a nifty feature.

I've never played them and don't know the Saturn hardware.
Until a B3D regular pops in to provide you with a comprehensive answer, there are some old (brief) mentions about those effects in these threads:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22520-The-Sega-Saturn-appreciation-thread/page30
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?20069-The-PSX-Vs-Saturn-Poll/page43&styleid=9

 

[JLinneman]

I've never played them and don't know the Saturn hardware.
Until a B3D regular pops in to provide you with a comprehensive answer, there are some old (brief) mentions about those effects in these threads:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?22520-The-Sega-Saturn-appreciation-thread/page30
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?20069-The-PSX-Vs-Saturn-Poll/page43&styleid=9

Thanks!

I did notice that, in the second game, the game continues to animate when paused. When looking at the water in Episode 4, it looks like there is a texture applied to the surface that is then manipulated on a per-scanline basis. You can see individual lines slowly shifting back and forth.

 

[iroboto]

Thanks!

I did notice that, in the second game, the game continues to animate when paused. When looking at the water in Episode 4, it looks like there is a texture applied to the surface that is then manipulated on a per-scanline basis. You can see individual lines slowly shifting back and forth.

Hey John, welcome!

I was wondering how long it would be to see a post on b3d from DF given the nature of this board (albeit we are much smaller than other gaming forums)

 

[tuna]

Your videos are really awesome! How about my suggestion for a Sonic Team Saturn retrospective (from NiGHTS to Burning Rangers)? That would be pretty cool as well.

(Sorry for bringing noice to this thread.)

Regarding Panzer 1, do you actually think that the water in the first level is a VDP2 generated effect? It always looked a bit weird and not at all like PDZ and Saga (at least to me).

 

[JLinneman]

Your videos are really awesome! How about my suggestion for a Sonic Team Saturn retrospective (from NiGHTS to Burning Rangers)? That would be pretty cool as well.

(Sorry for bringing noice to this thread.)

Regarding Panzer 1, do you actually think that the water in the first level is a VDP2 generated effect? It always looked a bit weird and not at all like PDZ and Saga (at least to me).

Yep, it is VDP2. I've already tested this using a couple emulators which allow you to disable various layers and examine what's being rendered by each one. The sky and water are entirely VDP2 generated while the rest is on VDP1.

 

[function]

I'm about to begin working on a Panzer Dragon 1 and 2 episode (Saga and Orta will follow at a later date, of course).

I've always appreciated the use of VDP2's infinite scroll planes in those games to create vast environments but I'm curious if anyone here is familiar with how VDP2 was manipulated to pull off the water effect seen in these games (and Grandia). I haven't been able to dig up a clear explanation of how that works. It's really a nifty feature.

Don't have time to read the links Riddlewire kindly posted unfortunately, so what I'm about to say may be redundant, but the Genesis/MD could do both horizontal and vertical line scrolling (and did lots of cool stuff with it), and as Sega liked to build on what their previous VDPs could do, I suspect VDP2 in the Saturn could do both and with nobs on.

I *think* you could achieve the Panzer Zwei water effect by using a combination of both vertical and horizontal line scrolling simultaneously, and applying some kind of wave form (e.g. a sin wave) to control displacement along the axes. This should allow you to modify the texture/sprite data used for each point on a scanline on a -potentially- per pixel basis using the VDP. I would guess that the CPU would provide the offsets using a lookup table and feed them to to VDP in much the same way that scaling and rotation parameters were .... but that's definitely just a guess.

 

[Cyan]

A myth has fallen. The best Donkey Kong player ever allegedly cheated to achieve his scores. But I wonder... Is that actually cheating? I am not entirely sure, because the scores are there for the world to see.

 

[BRiT]

@Cyan I don't think you comprehend what he did. He used MAME to stich together a play-through. He kept replaying sections of the game to get better RNG for the points, and then continued playing from there. Think of it as being able to use Save-Points and Reload-Game to continue on. The arcade game of Donkey Kong has no such feature, but playing it through MAME does allow for that.

It doesn't much matter because his top score of only 1.06 million was invalidated, and it isn't enough to be in the top 10, heck, it barely places him in the top 47. His era is far and away over, but he's still clinging onto his 15 minutes.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018...ard-strips-billy-mitchells-high-score-claims/

 

[eloic]

His era is far and away over, but he's still clinging onto his 15 minutes.

Plus, he's creepy AF.

 

[Nesh]

But didnt he also reach super scores while playing on the actual machines?
I think this is one of the exceptions

 

[Nesh]

According to wikipedia he did achieve impressive numbers in various games and in times when we didnt have access to emulators. But sucks that he used MAME on donkey kong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mitchell_(video_game_player)

 

[Concerto]

I wonder if the Panzer Dragoon coverage will discuss the pc version utilizing the Diamond Edge 3d (Nvidia NV1).

 

[BRiT]

DF Retro looks at stunning Sega Saturn classics Panzer Dragoon and Panzer Dragoon Zwei :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967719740981633026

 

[function]

DF Retro looks at stunning Sega Saturn classics Panzer Dragoon and Panzer Dragoon Zwei :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967719740981633026

That was really, really good. Loved it.

John could have - if he had the time in such a long and in depth video - used the Pandra's Box (how it was actually spelt!) "Omake" videos in Zwei to show parts of the sequel running in a less optimised version of the engine akin to the first game. It's really interesting as it still has the original game's targeting reticle but much shorter draw distance and lower frame rate.

Team Andromeda really dug into the Saturn's hardware and delivered astonishing leaps in capability perhaps greater than even AM2 and certainly beyond any third party. The leap to Zwei and then Saga (somewhat different teams within Andromeda after the first game, who worked at points in parallel but sharing know-how) is probably the best example I can think of, of a developer digging into capable but fundamentally flawed hardware and delivering magic.

And that chip generated music in Zwei and Saga is simply incredible. I still listen to it now. Atmospheric soundtrack changes while the CD drive is tied up streaming in boss data: fucking "mindbloaining" back in early 96.

 

[Cyan]

DF Retro looks at stunning Sega Saturn classics Panzer Dragoon and Panzer Dragoon Zwei :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967719740981633026

Kinda liked the NV1 version the most, too bad it can't be emulated now. I have never played this game on a PC, and on consoles, my best childhood friend who had SNES and Megadrive and got the Mega CD and 32X, jumped into the PS1 bandwagon so I never played a Saturn. The PC was my first machine back in september 1995 and never had the NV1, just got the famous Monster 3D graphics card by then. So... I've never experienced this game. One can get how it had to feel playing something like that in 1995, as John mentions in the video.

I had Virtua Fighter and the likes of Battle Arena Toshinden in my PC back then, and played rather well, plus other Sega games like the Sonic versions for the PC. But never this one. Crimson Dragon though, is another story, and I bought it at launch date, mostly because of the Kinect controls but got a liking for it playing just regularly with a gamepad. If you played the original game one could feel super hyped but that wasnt the case for me, just a Kinect game that I wanted to try 'cos I thought Kinect would be so fun and accurate -it wasnt neither in the end, alas, save for voice recognition stuff-.

It's quite surprising to see how they managed to simulate vast spaces that extend into the horizon on old hardware.. Btw, nice touch at 4:02 into the video.

The Game Gear version was horrible. The Game Gear itself was an strange beast. I mean, was it actually portable?? 'Cos it was big, I saw it more like a Master System you could somehow move.

 

[Nesh]

DF Retro looks at stunning Sega Saturn classics Panzer Dragoon and Panzer Dragoon Zwei :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967719740981633026

Zwei is so well crafted that it holds well even today for such an old game. It is one of these games that the PS1 probably never matched, or at least it kind of matched with Omega Boost. But you can instantly notice the limitations of the absence of something like the Saturn's VDP2 in that game. The draw distance was very very short and the variety in the environments wasn't as large which are areas that Zwei excelled.

 

[see colon]

Zwei is so well crafted that it holds well even today for such an old game. It is one of these games that the PS1 probably never matched, or at least it kind of matched with Omega Boost. But you can instantly notice the limitations of the absence of something like the Saturn's VDP2 in that game. The draw distance was very very short and the variety in the environments wasn't as large which are areas that Zwei excelled.

There are parts of Omega Burst that look better, but it failed at world building, and sense of scale. Also, it's one of the many PS1 games that has that terrible dithered pattern covering the whole screen. I looks alright if you are using composite cables but looks rough on s-video or better.

 

[OCASM]

DF Retro looks at stunning Sega Saturn classics Panzer Dragoon and Panzer Dragoon Zwei :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967719740981633026

Too bad it doesn't take into account how those games look on the CRT TVs they were developed for. For example, the dithering actually looks transparent:

https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.mx/2015/03/the-case-for-composite.html