Mixed Information on Consoles or How I learned to loathe PR *spin off*

[Deleted member 11852]

You can call it what you like. This discussion has been about Kotaku's expectations, and PS4P and XB1X not meeting expectations. Whether you call XB1X a new Family Member or a Mid-gen console or anything, it's 1) unlike any console before - it's definitely not a new console 4 years on in the same way XB360 was a new console 5 years on from Xbox, and 2) Didn't not receive exclusive games at launch and isn't getting any any time soon, such that Kotaku can't look at the XB1X exclusives and be disappointed in a lack of visual progress.

Xbox 360 (2005) came four years after Xbox (2001) and I'm not sure what your definition of "new console" is? As for "it's unlike any console before", as a consumer it's exactly like the PS4 Pro which came out just over a year ago; being it's a new, powerful console that ran the games of it's predecessor.

Whether it's mid-generational at all is simply not a determination anybody can make now because it relies on the concept of generation playing and seeing what follows. If Sony roll a completely new generation in 2-3 years it's clear PS4 Pro was a mid-gen console (and this is how Sony actively promote it). If Microsoft release a new iteratively improved Xbox in 2-4 years then Xbox One X arguably isn't mid-generation because will be delivering on the vision of generations falling away and a ebbing and flowing Xbox customer base buying in when they are inclined to do so - just like PC, which is the model that continually refer too.

There's no way any gaming journalist, for whom these boxes are their life, could have read MS's PR over the past year and imagined something like a typical new console release.

Journalists opinions do not trump Microsoft's technical roadmap. A genuine shift away from traditional console generations will be hard for consumer and journalists, both of which will struggle with change. For eight generations there was been distinct generations but you can't ignore Microsoft constant referencing of the generationless Windows platform. They keep trying to get people to think that way and people can't or won't.

I present exhibit A, you are a mod on a technical forum and you seem to be have difficulty accepting this.

 

[Recop]

If Microsoft release a new iteratively improved Xbox in 2-4 years then Xbox One X arguably isn't mid-generation because will be delivering on the vision of generations falling away and a ebbing and flowing Xbox customer base buying in when they are inclined to do so - just like PC, which is the model that continually refer too.

It doesn't depend of MS... if the PS5 is far more powerful than the X, then MS can't simply release an improved X...

Also, as long as the change only concerns the GPU, it's less problematic. You can expect a completely new hardware for the next Xbox and it will cause real problems for the developers to port the games on old consoles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Journalists opinions do not trump Microsoft's technical roadmap...I present exhibit A, you are a mod on a technical forum and you seem to be have difficulty accepting this.

Ignoring what? I'm NOT saying XB1X isn't a new type of progressive console that'll slide into next gen nicely. I'm talking about Kotaku's feelings of being hyped based on MS's messaging and what was the hype train they were supposedly put onto. So what am I ignoring? And hat has being a mod on a technical forum got to do with that?

 

[MrSpiggott]

Isn't it natural to be a little disappointed by the XB1X?

It's a 6TF console that plays games designed for a 1.3TF Console at a higher resolution through brute force.
Any new rendering approaches that 6TF opens up to you are impossible to implement because the game has to scale down to run on the slower machine. It's hands are permanently tied to old rendering technology.

Does it represent good value for money?
There's a quality improvement in the games certainly, but is it worth it for the high entry cost, particularly if you already own an XboxOne?
Does it make more sense to invest the money in something like a surround sound amp and speakers, or if you're buying a new TV, get a better quality one. There's a definite gameplay and immersion improvement there, which also benefits movie watching and any future consoles you buy.
I suppose this all depends on your disposable income.
Of course all this applies to the PSPro as well, except it's cheaper.

 

[Pixel]

Isn't it natural to be a little disappointed by the XB1X?

It's a 6TF console that plays games designed for a 1.3TF Console at a higher resolution through brute force.
Any new rendering approaches that 6TF opens up to you are impossible to implement because the game has to scale down to run on the slower machine. It's hands are permanently tied to old rendering technology.

Does it represent good value for money?
There's a quality improvement in the games certainly, but is it worth it for the high entry cost, particularly if you already own an XboxOne?
Does it make more sense to invest the money in something like a surround sound amp and speakers, or if you're buying a new TV, get a better quality one. There's a definite gameplay and immersion improvement there, which also benefits movie watching and any future consoles you buy.
I suppose this all depends on your disposable income.
Of course all this applies to the PSPro as well, except it's cheaper.

I guess you could say the same for any PC gamer who's videocard more powerful than say a GTX750ti. Its running a game designed for a 1.3tflop console with higher resolution and better post processing effects and sometimes higher res textures and better texture filtering, and better framerates. This is similar to the X1X. There is the possible exception with PC exclusives, but then outside of Crysis a decade ago, there is only one other game since then that has not been designed for lower end videocards and scaled up for higher end, that being star citizen which requires 16GB ram.

 

[MrSpiggott]

@Pixel
I agree with your pc example, the only comment I'd like to add is that if you buy a new video card, you will eventually find games that take advantage of the power beyond just resolution and filtering.
But with the XB1X you never will. It will be forever stuck brute forcing XBoxOne games to higher resolutions. Unless Microsoft change their comparability promise.

 

[iroboto]

@Pixel
I agree with your pc example, the only comment I'd like to add is that if you buy a new video card, you will eventually find games that take advantage of the power beyond just resolution and filtering.
But with the XB1X you never will. It will be forever stuck brute forcing XBoxOne games to higher resolutions. Unless Microsoft change their comparability promise.

That’s a fairly inaccurate statement, even at a reductionist level.

Several key points:
A) MS does not force developers to do anything with their hardware

B) X1X versions are not even mandated.

C) Developers are provided total freedom on how they want to use the hardware.

D) Games enhanced for X1X do not need to meet 4K criteria. And games that do can be cherkerboarded, reconstructed, dynamic res etc.

E) most games on X1X enhanced have features beyond resolution and texture filtering. Most run higher settings over the base model if you have been watching any DF videos.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It doesn't depend of MS... if the PS5 is far more powerful than the X, then MS can't simply release an improved X...

So you're saying if PS5 is more powerful than Xbox One X, Microsoft simply can't release a more powerful version of Xbox One X that is also more powerful than PS5?

Why?

 

[BRiT]

So you're saying if PS5 is more powerful than Xbox One X, Microsoft simply can't release a more powerful version of Xbox One X that is also more powerful than PS5?

Why?

At the very least they could release a console equally as powerful as the PS5 unless Sony revives CELL for their own custom hardware .... but that's entirely a different supposition topic.

 

[iroboto]

At the very least they could release a console equally as powerful as the PS5 unless Sony revives CELL for their own custom hardware .... but that's entirely a different supposition topic.

Lol oh you

 

[function]

And ? I see that as a way to distinguish your console from the competition. Not necesseraly a move to blur the lines between generations. I mean, we are talking about 360 games...

Otherwise, XB1 games work on X as well as PS4 games work on PS4Pro...

Not really, as X1X also enforces 16x aniso and vsync giving a massive uplift to X1 IQ, and brings about far larger performance improvements. None of that was free for MS, they had to do lots of profiling, hardware work, lots of software work, and lots of testing.

As for X1, it now has some OG Xbox BC, and rather impressive 360 BC. PS4 lacks either PS3 or PS2 BC.

MS absolutely have to do this to change the idea of what a "generation" is.

Yeah and the X is vastly more powerful than the XB1. It's obvious and expected.

If it's so obvious and so much to be expected, how about you point out the improvements to PS3 and PS2 BC that the Pro brought about?

... exactly.

I wouldn't be so keen to dismiss as trivial something that so many smart people spent a lot of time and effort developing, refining and deploying. None of this was automatic. None of this "just happened" because the X1X was faster.

What makes you think that this technology is in part hardware based ?

Because both MS and people from AMD have said so.

As the PS4 didn't immediately kill the PS3. It doesn't matter. Unless you think that the X will survive during the whole new generation ?

... sorry I have no idea how this counters my point that we don't know if X1X will die at the same time. If X1X exists beyond X1, then it's not just a hi-rez X1 option.

It already changed... and Sony was the first to bring the change...

The console market has changed many times in many ways, both before and after Sony arrived. My point is that MS just need the market to change [in a way that accommodates them]. I thought you were saying that such change is impossible. Now you're saying that it's already happened, because of Sony...?

I don't know of what you are talking about... also, don't forget that the fat PS3 was able to run PS2 games... nothing new here.

I already explained what I was talking about, in the paragraph above the one you took this sentence from!

And nothing new? PS3 ran PS2 games by including PS2 hardware - discrete chips. Eventually they got the CPU emulated. Then they pulled the GPU out and killed BC entirely. Fucking dead.

MS worked at the hardware level to allow BC using the chips they would power the system with for life, then built complex software to allow virtualised past platforms, then did all kinds of magic to allow massively boosted performance without breaking anything, IQ, and enormous jumps in resolution.

That's new. That's not what anyone previously has made available to customers who move between consoles generations. And we know it took years, and wasn't easy.

And they waited several years for that... not the same rhythm than computers or phones, once again. Also, let's see how many X MS will sell... and it will be interesting to know how consumers behave now that they know a mid-gen refresh is possible.

New phones and graphics cards might come out every year, but not everyone replaces them every year. I'm still on a GTX 680 OC (a tad faster than a stock 770). I don't need a new GPU every year, but I'm part of a market where models are replaced every year, and where software moves with the overall hardware base. And the same games are playable on my GTX 680 as on the PS4 and PS4Pro, even though the GTX 680 came out earlier. Games don't conform rigidly to Playstation generations.

This is reality. Console games run fine (often better!) on hardware that does not remotely conform to the idea of a Playstation generation. It's real. It really happens! All the time!

Seriously, what do you expect ? A new console every 2 years ?

I don't expect anything. But I think a new console when the technology and market opportunity converge would be great, so long as the vendor has MS's approach to game catalogues and BC, and not the approach that Sony have so far demonstrated they wish to provide.

 

[MrSpiggott]

That’s a fairly inaccurate statement, even at a reductionist level.

Several key points:
A) MS does not force developers to do anything with their hardware

B) X1X versions are not even mandated.

C) Developers are provided total freedom on how they want to use the hardware.

D) Games enhanced for X1X do not need to meet 4K criteria. And games that do can be cherkerboarded, reconstructed, dynamic res etc.

E) most games on X1X enhanced have features beyond resolution and texture filtering. Most run higher settings over the base model if you have been watching any DF videos.

Yes I've seen the DF videos. Do the improvements really look that exciting considering the high cost of upgrading? I think this is where some of the disappointment is coming from. You're paying next gen hardware prices for jazzed up current gen games.(I'm talking about both mid gen console upgrades here, not just Xbox. It just unfortunately costs more.)
You're right, a developer could develop, for example, a cutting edge, realistic lighting engine to make use of that 6TF, but is it financially viable to develop two engines, one for Xbox, PS4 & PSPro and another for X1X with all the support and art asset problems associated with this? Will more games be sold? I don't think so.
I think they'll sell just as many copies using the same engine with resolution reconstruction and the setting turned up.

 

[AzBat]

You're right, a developer could develop, for example, a cutting edge, realistic lighting engine to make use of that 6TF, but is it financially viable to develop two engines, one for Xbox, PS4 & PSPro and another for X1X with all the support and art asset problems associated with this?

Change that to Xbox One/PS4 & another for Xbox One X/PC, and I think it will work just fine. PC developers have been doing it for years. It won't be overly difficult or add much work. Plus, see Microsoft's continued investment & change in hardware allocation for Xbox games running on the Universal Windows Platform as some indication of how they may proceed with future hardware.

I'm sure as I'm standing here that Microsoft has a plan on on how they will attack their next hardware & how they will define their console platform going forward. I believe that XB1X is their first step & definitely hints at what they have in store. I don't believe it will be like previous generations.

Tommy McClain

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Change that to Xbox One/PS4 & another for Xbox One X/PC, and I think it will work just fine. PC developers have been doing it for years. It won't be overly difficult or add much work. Plus, see Microsoft's continued investment & change in hardware allocation for Xbox games running on the Universal Windows Platform as some indication of how they may proceed with future hardware.

Which'll be great if it happens. Until then, personal impressions will be based on what people are experiencing now and are expecting in the immediate future, no?

 

[DrJay24]

Change that to Xbox One/PS4 & another for Xbox One X/PC, and I think it will work just fine. PC developers have been doing it for years. It won't be overly difficult or add much work.
Tommy McClain

But that's not what is happening. You have cross-platform games created for the lowest common denominator, the XB1/PS4 and they might, might throw in some better textures for the XBX. There will be no breakthrough in tech until a console(s) exist that has potential market to support it, that will be next gen. New CPUs, more memory, etc. The XBX is just a supped up PS4 (yes, not a XB1). If you can't beat them, join them!

 

[AzBat]

Look at XB1X Enhanced games like Forza 7 that are using PC quality settings or any game that is offering more than just 4K upgrades. It's got to start somewhere & it doesn't happen overnight, but the building blocks are there for developers to utilize.

Bunch of Negative Nancy's. Hopefully some of you will make a New Year's resolution to quit being so cynical.

Tommy McClain

 

[function]

But that's not what is happening. You have cross-platform games created for the lowest common denominator, the XB1/PS4 and they might, might throw in some better textures for the XBX. There will be no breakthrough in tech until a console(s) exist that has potential market to support it, that will be next gen. New CPUs, more memory, etc. The XBX is just a supped up PS4 (yes, not a XB1). If you can't beat them, join them!

X1X is a souped up PS4? Well ... no. No it's not. There's a lot more than "not having esram" that differentiates X1 and PS4. HDMI in, shape audio, command processors, compute queues, building on the already lower latency X1 CPU, esram emulation, the flash supported HDD, UDH support of the X1S, 4K support of the X1S. And Kinect legacy shit, if anyone still cares about that ... And that's just off the top of the head of a forum bum like myself.

But on topic ... actually X1X is already getting improvements from the PC space. And texture enhancements are really common, and make a very respectable difference on a 4K display. As the PC continues to overtake PS4/X1 in terms of capability there will be more easily portable low hanging fruit that will make an increasingly un-subtle difference to graphics. There always is.

Console only gamers often fail to see the painful, hard-won evolution of software and tools technology because they're focused on the spec jumps that happen every 4~8 years on consoles. Pretty much as soon as a console is launched it's holding something back, somewhere, and that only gets greater as the months and years go by.

And there are no "breakthroughs in [game] tech". Not really. There are just lots of hard won smaller victories that add up over time. Sometimes faster hardware and higher resolutions allow you to see these (just look at some of the upresed X1X BC stuff), and sometimes slower hardware means that only the PC master race get to enjoy them - leaving many people to think things have stagnated.

 

[DrJay24]

AMD APU with Jaguar cores and a single pool of GDDR. Sorry to insult your console but compared to last gen differences they are basically the same.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Bunch of Negative Nancy's. Hopefully some of you will make a New Year's resolution to quit being so cynical.

It's not being cynical. It's evaluating the product in the here and now. Like getting a PS4 Camera in 2014 and being disappointed because it's not very good (based on your subjective expectations) regardless of what it may or may not be used as in future. Or even more, buying a PSEye for PS3 having seen everything that could happen based on Sony's PR video, pretty much none of which ever materialised.

Maybe XB1X will get exclusives and super-duper advances in engines that focus on its 6 TF regardless of the other consoles. Maybe it won't. What we do know right now is that it's getting the same games as the other machines with improved visuals (slightly or lots depending on the subjective valuations of the players) and we know that MS didn't promise anything more than that and we know some people love the machine and some don't. All the counter-arguments don't make any sense to me because they're trying to make more or less of the situation than it actually is, which is very prosaic.

 

[function]

AMD APU with Jaguar cores and a single pool of GDDR. Sorry to insult your console but compared to last gen they are basically the same.

You said "XBX is just a supped up PS4 (yes, not a XB1)". You weren't comparing to last gen, you were comparing to X1 and PS4. As I tried to explain, there's far more that differentiates X1 and PS4 than just having a single pool of Dram.

I don't have an X1, X1S, or X1X. But that last comment of yours certainly shows the level you operate on, and the position you're operating from.