Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2017]

[Jay]

I think it's way too early to even talk about there being a problem with the 1X as it was put. Reasonable to discuss what it is and isn't being done though, and how the hardware comes into play.

even I could see the difference in clarity between 4pro and 1X, and considering 4pro is 2160cb dynamic, I didn't expect to see such a difference compared to native dynamic.
so do we have any stats regarding resolution when the 1X is dropping compared to resolution of the 4pro at the same time?

it's possible that the 4pro is dropping resolution a lot more in comparison to 1X. If that's the case then the only issue is the 1X not scaling enough.

 

[iroboto]

Colour compression should help PS4 Pro utilize it's ROPs (assuming it has 64). For example, say colour compression saved the PS4 Pro 10% bandwidth requirement.

0.911 * 4 * 2 * 0.90 * x=217 GB/s
x = 33 ROPs

I imagine the benefits of colour compression vary based on a particular frame, but any savings could help it achieve a greater fillrate from available ROPs. That said, the ROPs are clocked lower.

1.172 * 32 = 0.911 * y
y = 41

So 41 PS4 Pro ROPs have about the same pixel fillrate as 32 Xbox One X ROPs. That said, PS4 Pro games seem to be typically running at lower resolutions, or checkerboarding, so they're far less likely to be fillrate bound in a given frame.

So, to work this again:

0.911 * 4 * 2 * 64 * x= 217
x = 0.465

So assuming 4 bytes of data, you'd need colour compression to compress it down to 46.5% to utilize all 64 ROPs, and I'm not sure if the alpha channel gets some kind of compression, or if it's just the colour channels.

Edit:

Adding in another piece

0.911 * 4 * 2 * 41 * x = 217
x = 0.726

Assuming 4 bytes of data per read/write, colour compression would have to compress that down to 72.6% to allow PS4 Pro to match the pixel fillrate of Xbox One X. That's basically the bandwidth needed for 41 PS4 Pro ROPs. Maybe it doesn't exactly work that way. Again though, if the games are checkerboarding or running at lower resolution, they may not have the same pixel fillrate requirements anyway.

totally forgot that ROPs were the bottleneck, not bandwidth. Does look very good for higher precision formats for 1X then.

 

[iroboto]

I think it's way too early to even talk about there being a problem with the 1X as it was put. Reasonable to discuss what it is and isn't being done though, and how the hardware comes into play.

even I could see the difference in clarity between 4pro and 1X, and considering 4pro is 2160cb dynamic, I didn't expect to see such a difference compared to native dynamic.
so do we have any stats regarding resolution when the 1X is dropping compared to resolution of the 4pro at the same time?

it's possible that the 4pro is dropping resolution a lot more in comparison to 1X. If that's the case then the only issue is the 1X not scaling enough.

well yea, lol. i mean if you're CBR and rendering a less resolution as well, you're gonna have less load overall. I think any game that wanted 1X to run well, they could program to do it, it's just a matter of optimization around some of those bottlenecks. Infinite warfare is an older title, so I'm not expecting them to go back and really take the 1X version through its paces. They have future titles and WW2 to drive sales at the moment.

 

[Scott_Arm]

totally forgot that ROPs were the bottleneck, not bandwidth. Does look very good for higher precision formats for 1X then.

Yes, that smaller the data that is read and written on PS4 Pro, the larger the advantage it'll have in terms of pixel fillrate. Around 4 bytes per pixel it looks like Xbox One X probably has an advantage.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think it's way too early to even talk about there being a problem with the 1X as it was put. Reasonable to discuss what it is and isn't being done though, and how the hardware comes into play.

even I could see the difference in clarity between 4pro and 1X, and considering 4pro is 2160cb dynamic, I didn't expect to see such a difference compared to native dynamic.
so do we have any stats regarding resolution when the 1X is dropping compared to resolution of the 4pro at the same time?

it's possible that the 4pro is dropping resolution a lot more in comparison to 1X. If that's the case then the only issue is the 1X not scaling enough.

I don't think there's a problem with 1X. Just different systems have different advantages and disadvantages. If PS4 Pro has 64 ROPs there are probably going to be cases where shaders can take advantage of it. Then in other cases PS4 Pro will have different disadvantages, like ALU, memory bandwidth or overall memory capacity. So the performance profile of each console will not be exactly the same, or scale the same ways. Depends on the game and the particular scene, and what rendering choices the devs have made between the platforms.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

How do these strengths and weaknesses factor in to the development process?

If a developer optimises for the PS4, they will have an easy time porting to the Pro and X1X, but at what point do they fork off and begin work on specific optimisations?

 

[Gubbi]

If the slowdowns are indeed caused by heavy alphas, it's not a ROP problem, it's a bandwidth problem. Both systems can saturate their memory subsystem with blend operations with the ROPs they have. The 1X is rendering twice as many pixels but only has 50% more bandwidth than the Pro.

Question is, why are alphas full res? Last gen half (quarter pixel count) and quarter (1/16 pixel count) sized alphas were used extensively with little impact on visual fidelity.

Cheers

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Do you reckon it's just a consequence of relative unfamiliarity with the hardware, and devs doing with it what people do when they get a new graphics card? I.e. turn everything up to max, tanking performance, and then realise they're going to have to dial some things back.

 

[JPT]

Do you reckon it's just a consequence of relative unfamiliarity with the hardware, and devs doing with it what people do when they get a new graphics card? I.e. turn everything up to max, tanking performance, and then realise they're going to have to dial some things back.

That sounds unlikely in my book, profiling is done and they should catch stuff like that. Then again they might decide that they want to release it like this even if they see it when profiling, for what ever reason I do not know.

 

[BRiT]

Horizon: The Frozen Wilds PS4 Pro - Tech Breakdown and Engine Analysis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...e-frozen-wilds-is-an-unmissable-tech-showcase

~~~
That said, it's not perfect. We tested the expansion on PlayStation 4 Pro and found that when using the high-res mode, there were occasional frame-rate drops. This is where the performance mode comes into play. This was added shortly after launch and lowers the resolution from a checkerboarded 2160p to a native 1368p to secure a more sustained 30fps lock (depth of field and volumetric passes increase in quality too). This mode was designed to add an additional 10 per cent of overhead to the game while pushing native resolution as high as it would go. The general feeling is that this does indeed take care of this sort of drop. Still, when most of the game is already locked at 30fps, our advice would be to stick with the high resolution 2160p mode - though users of 1080p screens may like to try both and see which they prefer.

Whichever way you play, you're in for a treat. The Frozen Wilds reminds us of everything that was great with the original game, while taking both the title in new directions. There's the sense that the artists and designers have been unleashed to create one of the most striking open world environments you can experience. Everything from the density per scene, the choice of colour, the fluidity of the animation and volume of assets really impresses here. We've seen a lot of large, open-ended games this year but it's clear that Guerrilla Games stands at the top of the industry with its efforts. Even with the growing sense of open world fatigue, we found that the world and lore was interesting enough to carry us through the game, while the quality of these visuals and the solidity of the presentation is unparalleled. For us, Horizon Zero Dawn is an essential release - and The Frozen Wilds genuinely adds further to the experience.

 

[iroboto]

Horizon: The Frozen Wilds PS4 Pro - Tech Breakdown and Engine Analysis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...e-frozen-wilds-is-an-unmissable-tech-showcase

~~~
That said, it's not perfect. We tested the expansion on PlayStation 4 Pro and found that when using the high-res mode, there were occasional frame-rate drops. This is where the performance mode comes into play. This was added shortly after launch and lowers the resolution from a checkerboarded 2160p to a native 1368p to secure a more sustained 30fps lock (depth of field and volumetric passes increase in quality too). This mode was designed to add an additional 10 per cent of overhead to the game while pushing native resolution as high as it would go. The general feeling is that this does indeed take care of this sort of drop. Still, when most of the game is already locked at 30fps, our advice would be to stick with the high resolution 2160p mode - though users of 1080p screens may like to try both and see which they prefer.

Whichever way you play, you're in for a treat. The Frozen Wilds reminds us of everything that was great with the original game, while taking both the title in new directions. There's the sense that the artists and designers have been unleashed to create one of the most striking open world environments you can experience. Everything from the density per scene, the choice of colour, the fluidity of the animation and volume of assets really impresses here. We've seen a lot of large, open-ended games this year but it's clear that Guerrilla Games stands at the top of the industry with its efforts. Even with the growing sense of open world fatigue, we found that the world and lore was interesting enough to carry us through the game, while the quality of these visuals and the solidity of the presentation is unparalleled. For us, Horizon Zero Dawn is an essential release - and The Frozen Wilds genuinely adds further to the experience.

Sweet. I actually have an HDR screen LOL. I can see it!! Be right back while I enjoy what I can. Sounds great.

 

[arhra]

Infinite warfare is an older title, so I'm not expecting them to go back and really take the 1X version through its paces. They have future titles and WW2 to drive sales at the moment.

On the other hand, Infinite Warfare is Infinity Ward, and their next game is still 2 years out. Tweaking the engine for IW is probably good practice to get the tech team up to speed on the One X and its capabilities and limitations (versus Treyarch who're no doubt deep into production on next year's game, and Sledgehammer who obviously just shipped WWII).

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Horizon: The Frozen Wilds PS4 Pro - Tech Breakdown and Engine Analysis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...e-frozen-wilds-is-an-unmissable-tech-showcase

~~~
That said, it's not perfect. We tested the expansion on PlayStation 4 Pro and found that when using the high-res mode, there were occasional frame-rate drops. This is where the performance mode comes into play. This was added shortly after launch and lowers the resolution from a checkerboarded 2160p to a native 1368p to secure a more sustained 30fps lock (depth of field and volumetric passes increase in quality too). This mode was designed to add an additional 10 per cent of overhead to the game while pushing native resolution as high as it would go. The general feeling is that this does indeed take care of this sort of drop. Still, when most of the game is already locked at 30fps, our advice would be to stick with the high resolution 2160p mode - though users of 1080p screens may like to try both and see which they prefer.

Whichever way you play, you're in for a treat. The Frozen Wilds reminds us of everything that was great with the original game, while taking both the title in new directions. There's the sense that the artists and designers have been unleashed to create one of the most striking open world environments you can experience. Everything from the density per scene, the choice of colour, the fluidity of the animation and volume of assets really impresses here. We've seen a lot of large, open-ended games this year but it's clear that Guerrilla Games stands at the top of the industry with its efforts. Even with the growing sense of open world fatigue, we found that the world and lore was interesting enough to carry us through the game, while the quality of these visuals and the solidity of the presentation is unparalleled. For us, Horizon Zero Dawn is an essential release - and The Frozen Wilds genuinely adds further to the experience.

I'm wondering why they didn't go for just a lower resolution CBR mode for performance? Or is something with the PS4-P CBR implementation imposing a higher performance impact than expected? Or is it just too hard to extract consistent performance out of PS4-P CBR that they decided it wasn't worth the time and effort to optimize a slightly lower resolution CBR mode?

It's just strange that they would choose to completely ditch CBR in favor of a much lower native resolution for their performance mode.

Regards,
SB

 

[chris1515]

I'm wondering why they didn't go for just a lower resolution CBR mode for performance? Or is something with the PS4-P CBR implementation imposing a higher performance impact than expected? Or is it just too hard to extract consistent performance out of PS4-P CBR that they decided it wasn't worth the time and effort to optimize a slightly lower resolution CBR mode?

It's just strange that they would choose to completely ditch CBR in favor of a much lower native resolution for their performance mode.

Regards,
SB

The Horizon Zero Dawn CBR doesn't use ID buffer. It is a custom one.

 

[iroboto]

On the other hand, Infinite Warfare is Infinity Ward, and their next game is still 2 years out. Tweaking the engine for IW is probably good practice to get the tech team up to speed on the One X and its capabilities and limitations (versus Treyarch who're no doubt deep into production on next year's game, and Sledgehammer who obviously just shipped WWII).

yea to a degree I'm sure there are some learnings there, but releasing every 3 years usually should imply heavy work on the pipeline for new methods; taking what was learned from the other 2 sister studios and then adding a bit on top of that. Not sure how much from IW will carry over to a title that has 3+ years of changes.

 

[iroboto]

Horizon: The Frozen Wilds PS4 Pro - Tech Breakdown and Engine Analysis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...e-frozen-wilds-is-an-unmissable-tech-showcase

~~~
That said, it's not perfect. We tested the expansion on PlayStation 4 Pro and found that when using the high-res mode, there were occasional frame-rate drops. This is where the performance mode comes into play. This was added shortly after launch and lowers the resolution from a checkerboarded 2160p to a native 1368p to secure a more sustained 30fps lock (depth of field and volumetric passes increase in quality too). This mode was designed to add an additional 10 per cent of overhead to the game while pushing native resolution as high as it would go. The general feeling is that this does indeed take care of this sort of drop. Still, when most of the game is already locked at 30fps, our advice would be to stick with the high resolution 2160p mode - though users of 1080p screens may like to try both and see which they prefer.

Whichever way you play, you're in for a treat. The Frozen Wilds reminds us of everything that was great with the original game, while taking both the title in new directions. There's the sense that the artists and designers have been unleashed to create one of the most striking open world environments you can experience. Everything from the density per scene, the choice of colour, the fluidity of the animation and volume of assets really impresses here. We've seen a lot of large, open-ended games this year but it's clear that Guerrilla Games stands at the top of the industry with its efforts. Even with the growing sense of open world fatigue, we found that the world and lore was interesting enough to carry us through the game, while the quality of these visuals and the solidity of the presentation is unparalleled. For us, Horizon Zero Dawn is an essential release - and The Frozen Wilds genuinely adds further to the experience.

this was an incredible video to watch.
In 4K and HDR, I could see everything and it was fantastic. I know in 1080p I could not have seen those fray hair strands. Though I was only getting that level of fidelity on close ups, while running behind the character, LOD gets a bit more aggressive. Regardless still looks good, if there wasn't youtube compression I'm sure it would be a lot sharper.

But that whole viewing distance, TV screen size, and resolution thing is complete BS, and I thought it was and now I know for sure it is. 1080p cannot render that which would fall between the cracks. You can make out so much more detail because those edge cases that the renderer would have removed because it doesn't fit in any pixel box is now present, adding an immaculate (if supported) amount of detail.

Loving the 4K and HDR.
Game looks amazing, and one of the best DF videos to date.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In 4K and HDR, I could see everything and it was fantastic. I know in 1080p I could not have seen those fray hair strands.

Why not? It was possible to make out individual hair strands on TV programmes in SD, let alone 1080p.

 

[KitRoot]

Another game that runs better on PS4Pro

 

[iroboto]

Why not? It was possible to make out individual hair strands on TV programmes in SD, let alone 1080p.

Those are cameras, they pick up everything, it's not the same as rendering imo. It was a perfectly stray hair LOL.

I can't describe, but I knew it is something that either wouldn't be present or look artefact like on 1080p

 

[iroboto]

Another game that runs better on PS4Pro

yikes that's rough